Zero2Cool
13 years ago

Why are we talking about number of sacks? Woodson came nowhere close to leading the league in sacks when he won the award. I would guess the voters look at overall impact the player has on the field as opposed to purely a statistical measure.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



Throw away the 9 interceptions he had then, right?





And it was supposed to be more gooder, not more better, d'oh!
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Nonstopdrivel
13 years ago
Jesus Christ, I didn't say that and you KNOW I didn't. You have a wonderful capacity for misconstruing people's words sometimes.
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Packers_Finland
13 years ago

Jesus Christ, I didn't say that and you KNOW I didn't. You have a wonderful capacity for misconstruing people's words sometimes.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



The latest discussion hovered around my claim that Clay is not a top 5 3-4 OLB. So naturally you'd compare the sacks because they are most accurate stat to measure players of that position.
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Nonstopdrivel
13 years ago
Of course you compare stats. But focusing on just sacks as a determinant of most valuable player, which is what some people seemed to be doing, makes no sense to me. A player could lead the league in sacks and not be the DPOY if, for example, he was a sack specialist who did little else. Whereas, like I said, Charles Woodson didn't lead the league in any one statistical category (other than TD returns), yet his overall impact was obvious to everyone. Similarly, even when he was injured, opposing defensive coordinators had to account for Matthews every game. That says a lot.
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Packers_Finland
13 years ago

Of course you compare stats. But focusing on just sacks as a determinant of most valuable player, which is what some people seemed to be doing, makes no sense to me. A player could lead the league in sacks and not be the DPOY if, for example, he was a sack specialist who did little else. Whereas, like I said, Charles Woodson didn't lead the league in any one statistical category (other than TD returns), yet his overall impact was obvious to everyone.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



I said Wake is better than CM3 because he has more sacks and TfL than him, and Suggs is better because he's the best run stopping 3-4 OLB in the league. And I'm talking solely sacks here?
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millertime
13 years ago
While you can debate how well CM3 matches up to past DPOY winners, you have to compare him to his competition from this season. (Polamolu, Wake, Harrison, Peppers, Revis)

For me, these awards must take into account a few things:
1. How well the team did.
2. The players stats.
3. What the team would be like if that player was gone.

With these in mind, I can't say that any other player deserved it more.

The Packers finished with a good record and a great defense (that removes Cameron Wake from the discussion).

If you look at stats alone. You can safely remove Harrison (10.5 sacks) and Peppers (8 sacks)from the ballot.

If you look at the value that the player had the team, The Steelers D allowed 14pts a game in the games that Polamolu played in and 12.5 in the 2 games he missed (granted 1 game was against the abysmal Panthers). Revis had down year, and the Jets D did not crumble in the games he missed (they won all 3, allowing an average of 22 pts.

When you look at Clay's importance to the Packers, it becomes more evident. He was injured early against Washington. The Packers lose that game by 3pts, the lose the next week against Miami by 3 pts, both games in overtime. The Packers D get 1 sack during the time that CM3 misses and, if anyone remembers those games, our pass rush was non-existent.

So basically, I can think of no player who deserves this award more than Clay. GO PACKERS!
Nonstopdrivel
13 years ago
Superb analysis. You expressed what I was trying to drive at, only far better than I possibly could have. +1
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Zero2Cool
13 years ago

Of course you compare stats. But focusing on just sacks as a determinant of most valuable player, which is what some people seemed to be doing, makes no sense to me. A player could lead the league in sacks and not be the DPOY if, for example, he was a sack specialist who did little else. Whereas, like I said, Charles Woodson didn't lead the league in any one statistical category (other than TD returns), yet his overall impact was obvious to everyone.

"Packers_Finland" wrote:



I said Wake is better than CM3 because he has more sacks and TfL than him, and Suggs is better because he's the best run stopping 3-4 OLB in the league. And I'm talking solely sacks here?

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



So Wake is better at getting sacks and Suggs is better at run stopping, but Clay is high in the discussion for both sacks and stopping the run. That makes me wonder if he's in the discussion for both, how is he not tops?
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Packers_Finland
13 years ago

Of course you compare stats. But focusing on just sacks as a determinant of most valuable player, which is what some people seemed to be doing, makes no sense to me. A player could lead the league in sacks and not be the DPOY if, for example, he was a sack specialist who did little else. Whereas, like I said, Charles Woodson didn't lead the league in any one statistical category (other than TD returns), yet his overall impact was obvious to everyone.

"Zero2Cool" wrote:



I said Wake is better than CM3 because he has more sacks and TfL than him, and Suggs is better because he's the best run stopping 3-4 OLB in the league. And I'm talking solely sacks here?

"Packers_Finland" wrote:



So Wake is better at getting sacks and Suggs is better at run stopping, but Clay is high in the discussion for both sacks and stopping the run. That makes me wonder if he's in the discussion for both, how is he not tops?

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



Wake gets more sacks and more TfL than Matthews, so he is better at rushing the QB and run defense. Though Wake is not as good in run defense as his 12 TfL suggest (top 3 in the league), he is still very good.

Suggs is nearly as good a sacker as CM3, but much better in run defense.

I'm not saying CM3 is a LOT worse than them, I'm just saying that if I had to pick which player was better I'd edge toward Suggs or Wake. Maybe when CM3 has a chance to play a full season healthy he'll change my mind.

While millertime's post is very informative, this isn't defensive MVP, it's DPOY so I don't think a team's record has a lot to do with deciding the winner. It's like saying Rodgers wasn't good in '08 because our team was only 6-10.
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peteralan71
13 years ago
I wonder why Ed Reed is not in the mix? 8 interceptions in 10 games played.... Seems to me that he should at least be in the discussion.
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Zero2Cool (7m) : Johnson didn't make it until 2020. Ring 2023. 🤷 Personally, he should have been in years prior to Hall.
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beast (20m) : Guys that have a good shot at making the NFL Hall of Fame usually get into their teams pretty fast
beast (21m) : Yeah, but is Kampman and the others in the NFL Hall of Fame?
Zero2Cool (26m) : Johnson was Hall of Fame, 2020. Should haev been in Ring a year later, not three years.
Zero2Cool (27m) : I could be wrong there though
Zero2Cool (28m) : Guys like Kampman, Tim Harris, Al Harris, etc all over 15 years. Hall of Fame is 5 year wait
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beast (32m) : Yeah, usually teams hall of fames are a much lower bar than the NFL
Zero2Cool (34m) : is it uncommon for Hall before Ring?
Zero2Cool (1h) : S Xavier McKinney named first-team All-Pro by NFLPA
beast (2h) : I missed it, sorry, but he got into the NFL Hall of Fame years before that
Zero2Cool (2h) : Jones took his sweet ole time!
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beast (2h) : Though if they're legitimately trying to re-sign MM, then it makes sense.
beast (2h) : Jerry Jones still hasn't put Jimmy Johnson in the Ring of Honor, but he's in the NFL's Hall of Fame, Jones is petty
Mucky Tundra (14h) : Unless the Cowboys are planning an extension, seems kinda petty
beast (16h) : Cowboys denied Bears request
Mucky Tundra (6-Jan) : From what I'm reading, MM is under contract through the 14th of January; after that he's free game
Zero2Cool (6-Jan) : McCarthy let go or not extended??
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Zero2Cool (6-Jan) : The winners page that is
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beast (6-Jan) : Thank you, and I was really opening we were going to get 4 or more tied for the top 3.
beast (6-Jan) : Thank you, and I was really opening we were going to get 4 or more tied for the top 3.
beast (6-Jan) : Thank you, and I was really opening we were going to get 4 or more tied for the top 3
Zero2Cool (6-Jan) : congrats beast on 2024 !
Zero2Cool (6-Jan) : congrats porky on winning 2023 pick'em! (oops sorry)
Zero2Cool (6-Jan) : Packers have $60M+ of 2025 cap space on paper TODAY.
Mucky Tundra (6-Jan) : Missed FG into a Lions TD; that'll do pig, that'll do
Mucky Tundra (6-Jan) : That might be it for the Vikings
Mucky Tundra (6-Jan) : Oh so the refs do know what intentional grounding is
Mucky Tundra (6-Jan) : what the hell was that Goff?! Not much pressure and he just air mails it to Harrison
Mucky Tundra (6-Jan) : They really need to to get rid of the auto first down for illegal contact
Martha Careful (6-Jan) : watching the Vikings and Lions it's understandable why they swept the Packers. So much better product
Mucky Tundra (6-Jan) : Even when GB got pressure he was throwing darts; vs no pressure on that last pass he just air mails an open guy
Zero2Cool (6-Jan) : didn't have guys in his face ... pressure makes difference
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Mucky Tundra (6-Jan) : BALL DON'T LIE
Mucky Tundra (6-Jan) : how was that not a safety? Goff throws it at an offensive lineman
Mucky Tundra (6-Jan) : Zero, I thought that was a given! ;)
Mucky Tundra (6-Jan) : Zero I looked through earlier and noticed the same thing. Bonkers year. I just wonder if beast put any money on games
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