Zero2Cool
14 years ago

Why are we talking about number of sacks? Woodson came nowhere close to leading the league in sacks when he won the award. I would guess the voters look at overall impact the player has on the field as opposed to purely a statistical measure.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



Throw away the 9 interceptions he had then, right?





And it was supposed to be more gooder, not more better, d'oh!
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Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
Jesus Christ, I didn't say that and you KNOW I didn't. You have a wonderful capacity for misconstruing people's words sometimes.
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Packers_Finland
14 years ago

Jesus Christ, I didn't say that and you KNOW I didn't. You have a wonderful capacity for misconstruing people's words sometimes.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



The latest discussion hovered around my claim that Clay is not a top 5 3-4 OLB. So naturally you'd compare the sacks because they are most accurate stat to measure players of that position.
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Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
Of course you compare stats. But focusing on just sacks as a determinant of most valuable player, which is what some people seemed to be doing, makes no sense to me. A player could lead the league in sacks and not be the DPOY if, for example, he was a sack specialist who did little else. Whereas, like I said, Charles Woodson didn't lead the league in any one statistical category (other than TD returns), yet his overall impact was obvious to everyone. Similarly, even when he was injured, opposing defensive coordinators had to account for Matthews every game. That says a lot.
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Packers_Finland
14 years ago

Of course you compare stats. But focusing on just sacks as a determinant of most valuable player, which is what some people seemed to be doing, makes no sense to me. A player could lead the league in sacks and not be the DPOY if, for example, he was a sack specialist who did little else. Whereas, like I said, Charles Woodson didn't lead the league in any one statistical category (other than TD returns), yet his overall impact was obvious to everyone.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



I said Wake is better than CM3 because he has more sacks and TfL than him, and Suggs is better because he's the best run stopping 3-4 OLB in the league. And I'm talking solely sacks here?
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millertime
14 years ago
While you can debate how well CM3 matches up to past DPOY winners, you have to compare him to his competition from this season. (Polamolu, Wake, Harrison, Peppers, Revis)

For me, these awards must take into account a few things:
1. How well the team did.
2. The players stats.
3. What the team would be like if that player was gone.

With these in mind, I can't say that any other player deserved it more.

The Packers finished with a good record and a great defense (that removes Cameron Wake from the discussion).

If you look at stats alone. You can safely remove Harrison (10.5 sacks) and Peppers (8 sacks)from the ballot.

If you look at the value that the player had the team, The Steelers D allowed 14pts a game in the games that Polamolu played in and 12.5 in the 2 games he missed (granted 1 game was against the abysmal Panthers). Revis had down year, and the Jets D did not crumble in the games he missed (they won all 3, allowing an average of 22 pts.

When you look at Clay's importance to the Packers, it becomes more evident. He was injured early against Washington. The Packers lose that game by 3pts, the lose the next week against Miami by 3 pts, both games in overtime. The Packers D get 1 sack during the time that CM3 misses and, if anyone remembers those games, our pass rush was non-existent.

So basically, I can think of no player who deserves this award more than Clay. GO PACKERS!
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
Superb analysis. You expressed what I was trying to drive at, only far better than I possibly could have. +1
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Zero2Cool
14 years ago

Of course you compare stats. But focusing on just sacks as a determinant of most valuable player, which is what some people seemed to be doing, makes no sense to me. A player could lead the league in sacks and not be the DPOY if, for example, he was a sack specialist who did little else. Whereas, like I said, Charles Woodson didn't lead the league in any one statistical category (other than TD returns), yet his overall impact was obvious to everyone.

"Packers_Finland" wrote:



I said Wake is better than CM3 because he has more sacks and TfL than him, and Suggs is better because he's the best run stopping 3-4 OLB in the league. And I'm talking solely sacks here?

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



So Wake is better at getting sacks and Suggs is better at run stopping, but Clay is high in the discussion for both sacks and stopping the run. That makes me wonder if he's in the discussion for both, how is he not tops?
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Packers_Finland
14 years ago

Of course you compare stats. But focusing on just sacks as a determinant of most valuable player, which is what some people seemed to be doing, makes no sense to me. A player could lead the league in sacks and not be the DPOY if, for example, he was a sack specialist who did little else. Whereas, like I said, Charles Woodson didn't lead the league in any one statistical category (other than TD returns), yet his overall impact was obvious to everyone.

"Zero2Cool" wrote:



I said Wake is better than CM3 because he has more sacks and TfL than him, and Suggs is better because he's the best run stopping 3-4 OLB in the league. And I'm talking solely sacks here?

"Packers_Finland" wrote:



So Wake is better at getting sacks and Suggs is better at run stopping, but Clay is high in the discussion for both sacks and stopping the run. That makes me wonder if he's in the discussion for both, how is he not tops?

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



Wake gets more sacks and more TfL than Matthews, so he is better at rushing the QB and run defense. Though Wake is not as good in run defense as his 12 TfL suggest (top 3 in the league), he is still very good.

Suggs is nearly as good a sacker as CM3, but much better in run defense.

I'm not saying CM3 is a LOT worse than them, I'm just saying that if I had to pick which player was better I'd edge toward Suggs or Wake. Maybe when CM3 has a chance to play a full season healthy he'll change my mind.

While millertime's post is very informative, this isn't defensive MVP, it's DPOY so I don't think a team's record has a lot to do with deciding the winner. It's like saying Rodgers wasn't good in '08 because our team was only 6-10.
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peteralan71
14 years ago
I wonder why Ed Reed is not in the mix? 8 interceptions in 10 games played.... Seems to me that he should at least be in the discussion.
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Martha Careful (4h) : I would love to have them both, esp. Crosby, but either might be too expensive.
Zero2Cool (13h) : Keisean Nixon is trying to get Maxx Crosby and Davante Adams lol
Mucky Tundra (20h) : Yeah where did it go?
packerfanoutwest (11-Feb) : or did you resctrict access to that topic?
packerfanoutwest (11-Feb) : why did you remove the Playoff topic?
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : Tua’s old DC won a Super Bowl Year 1 with Tua’s former backup
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : *winning MVP
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : Funny observation I've heard: Carson Wentz was on the sideline for both Eagles Super Bowl wins w/guys supposed to be his back up winning
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : NFL thought it would get more attention week preceding Super Bowl.
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : Yes, the Pro Bowl. It was played Sunday before Super Bowl from 2010-2022
packerfanoutwest (10-Feb) : pro bowl
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : From 2010 to 2022, it was played on the Sunday before the Super Bowl
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : They moved it to the BYE week before Super Bowl several years ago.
packerfanoutwest (10-Feb) : it was always after the SB.....
beast (10-Feb) : Though I stop following pro bowl years ago
beast (10-Feb) : I thought the pro game was before the Super Bowl?
packerfanoutwest (10-Feb) : ok now for the Pro Bowl Game in Hawaii
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : If I was Philly I would try to end it instead of punting it
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : VICTORY! We have (moral) victory!
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : Hey they mentioned that we 3-peted
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : seems to me the 49ers should have traded Aiyuk when they had the chance
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : if the Eagles get it down to the 1, do they Tush Push or give it to Barkley?
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : 49ers have a money problem if they want to sign their QB
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : Wait for real? Didn't he just get an extension two years ago?
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : 49ers gonna trade Deebo. Interesting
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : Replays always never seem to show the holdings
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : Great throw by Hurts
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : Where Carter falls prey to bad off the field influences (to be clear, not saying he'd clip someone though)
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : Had Carter not gone to Philly were they already had a lot of old college friends, he ends up in a similar spot to Aaron Hernandez
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : I think some of his coaches told scouts to stay away
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : the street racing incident+conditioning and motivation problems
beast (10-Feb) : Then Carter was street racing, where the other car crashed and people died... and other teams were scared to pick Carter for some reason
beast (10-Feb) : I think the Saints traded up, giving their next year 1st to the Eagles, and then they sucked and Eagles got the 10th overall pick
packerfanoutwest (10-Feb) : wtf Barkley?
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : Getting Carter and Nolan Smith in the first round in 2023 was pretty darn good
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : for some reason i'm thinking of a draft where the Eagles where in the mid 20s and a top player fell all the way to them
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : I think so. I would need to look it up. Think it may have been Carolina's pick.
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : i'm not sure who i'm thinking of now
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : oh fuck me i messed that up
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : Jordan Davis was 13th overall
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : Carter was 9th overall
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : Eagles had 15th and 10th selections, moved to 13 and 9 to get Davis and Carter back to back
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : Eagles traded up for Carter, didn't they?
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : Obviously he was a huge risk but getting a top 5 talent on the dline in the mid 20s is fortuitous
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : Jalen Carter falling into their lap certainly helps
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : And we could only wish to have this type of D
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : It's not like Philly has had low draft picks, but has managed to get themselves a top notch pass rush. We spend so much draft capital of D
packerfanoutwest (10-Feb) : another crap halftime show
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : I think it is over, but then I think of Atlanta and want Philly to go in with the same intensity in the second half
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : And with a Pass Rush that might as well be on a milk cartoon and no Jaire
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