azrunning
14 years ago
Hard to quantify this but CM3 also gets a lot of holding calls and false starts. I don't watch the dolphins or ravens enough to make the call on suggs and wake but those penalties are nice for the Pack.
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ILikeThePackers39
14 years ago
I liked Millertime's rundown - and I'm reminded of similar debate last year when Woodson won AP DPOY. Numerous people objected, saying that since Revis was a better CB he should win the award. Several others (I was in this group) argued to no avail that given the breadth of what Woodson was able to accomplish, DPOY was deserved. Because it's Defensive Player of the Year, not best cornerback or best OLB.

Given the range of skills CMIII has employed this season, I think the argument is similar. Did he get the most sacks? No (close, though), but did the others being mentioned as more deserving get the interceptions, forced fumbles, and other impact plays that he did? Nope.

If we were talking best OLB in a 3-4 defense, maybe you pick Wake or Suggs (or go with Ware, since he was the sack leader). We're not - DPOY is an award for overall impact and play, and with that standard, I have no problem with Matthews getting it.
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Packers_Finland
14 years ago

Given the range of skills CMIII has employed this season, I think the argument is similar. Did he get the most sacks? No (close, though), but did the others being mentioned as more deserving get the interceptions, forced fumbles, and other impact plays that he did? Nope.

"ILikeThePackers39" wrote:



There's not a stat for impact plays, but here's a comparison between CM3 and the guys I mentioned on some impact stats.

CM3 - 2 Forced Fumbles, 1 INT, 0 Fumble Recoveries, 1 TD
Ware - 2 Forced Fumbles, 0 INT, 2 Fumble Recoveries, 1 TD
Wake - 3 Forced Fumbles, 0 INT, 0 Fumble Recoveries
Hali - 4 Forced Fumbles, 0 INT, 2 Fumble Recoveries
Harrison - 6 Forced Fumbles, 2 INTs, 1 Fumble Recovery
Suggs - 2 Forced Fumbles, 0 INT, 0 Fumble Recoveries

He didn't lead any one statistic, nor all statistics combined compared to other elite 3-4 OLBs.

Ware, Wake and Hali had more sacks than him. Harrison, Suggs, Wake and Ware had more tackles for loss.

They all blew up plays that only show on the stat sheet as a tackle, so I don't think we can give CM3 an advantage on that either.
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Zero2Cool
14 years ago
Did they also play opposite of Brad Jones, Brady Poppinga, Brandon Chillar, Frank Zombo, Erik Walden?
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azrunning
14 years ago

Given the range of skills CMIII has employed this season, I think the argument is similar. Did he get the most sacks? No (close, though), but did the others being mentioned as more deserving get the interceptions, forced fumbles, and other impact plays that he did? Nope.

"Packers_Finland" wrote:



There's not a stat for impact plays, but here's a comparison between CM3 and the guys I mentioned on some impact stats.

CM3 - 2 Forced Fumbles, 1 INT, 0 Fumble Recoveries, 1 TD
Ware - 2 Forced Fumbles, 0 INT, 2 Fumble Recoveries, 1 TD
Wake - 3 Forced Fumbles, 0 INT, 0 Fumble Recoveries
Hali - 4 Forced Fumbles, 0 INT, 2 Fumble Recoveries
Harrison - 6 Forced Fumbles, 2 INTs, 1 Fumble Recovery
Suggs - 2 Forced Fumbles, 0 INT, 0 Fumble Recoveries

He didn't lead any one statistic, nor all statistics combined compared to other elite 3-4 OLBs.

Ware, Wake and Hali had more sacks than him. Harrison, Suggs, Wake and Ware had more tackles for loss.

They all blew up plays that only show on the stat sheet as a tackle, so I don't think we can give CM3 an advantage on that either.

"ILikeThePackers39" wrote:



I think people are saying that just the stats don't tell the whole story. If he is getting double teamed then somebody else has a better opportunity. If the back or TE has to help block him then they don't go out on a route. On this team, for this defense, I think he offers more than his stats than the other LB's do for their teams.
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Greg C.
14 years ago

I trust the writers to pick the right guy more than I trust the players, coaches, and GMs. The football people often don't have the best perspective on the league as a whole. The writers are at least supposed to have that perspective. Not all of them do, but I think most of them at least give it a good effort. I think Clay will win the AP award anyway. He deserves it.

"Packers_Finland" wrote:



I don't really 'trust' any of their votes. Did each voter watch every play of every game to properly and accurately dispense their vote? Often time writers are in certain regions, rather than covering every game like say a Peter King.

"Zero2Cool" wrote:



But Peter King is totally sniffing Tom Brady's balls.

"Greg C." wrote:



Well, it's not like he's the only one who's doing that. And it might have something to do with Brady being the best QB in the league right now, possibly the best of the past decade, and moving further into all-time great territory each season.
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DakotaT
14 years ago
I think the year Clay had while sitting out a game and a half, and playing injured for quite a few games is a testament to how good he is. And there was also quite a dropoff in the D when he wasn't on the field. No way we lose to Washington and Miami with Clay on the field.
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peteralan71
14 years ago
The one thing that I never thought of until I read all of the posts on this topic is that Clay certainly garners more attention from offenses than any player I've seen for a long time. He is always being double teamed, and in the midst of that, he continues to make plays. Sure, they aren't as often, but he still does. Also, every time he is double teamed, that is one less guy that is getting paid attention to for our defense, allowing other players to get their names in the paper.
Green Bay: Home of the Green & Gold. And the hunter orange. And the camouflage.
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Greg C.
14 years ago

The one thing that I never thought of until I read all of the posts on this topic is that Clay certainly garners more attention from offenses than any player I've seen for a long time. He is always being double teamed, and in the midst of that, he continues to make plays. Sure, they aren't as often, but he still does. Also, every time he is double teamed, that is one less guy that is getting paid attention to for our defense, allowing other players to get their names in the paper.

"peteralan71" wrote:



...resulting in this being the #2 scoring defense in the league in spite of a patchwork lineup due to numerous injuries.

The high ranking of our defense was no doubt a huge factor in this vote, and rightfully so. The only better defense was the Steelers, and they had two guys who got a lot of votes. Possibly their two players split the votes, but I think Clay still had more impact than either one of them.
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kobe16
14 years ago
Back to back pack players for DPOY way to go Clay!!
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Fan Shout
Martha Careful (2h) : I would love to have them both, esp. Crosby, but either might be too expensive.
Zero2Cool (10h) : Keisean Nixon is trying to get Maxx Crosby and Davante Adams lol
Mucky Tundra (17h) : Yeah where did it go?
packerfanoutwest (11-Feb) : or did you resctrict access to that topic?
packerfanoutwest (11-Feb) : why did you remove the Playoff topic?
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : Tua’s old DC won a Super Bowl Year 1 with Tua’s former backup
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : *winning MVP
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : Funny observation I've heard: Carson Wentz was on the sideline for both Eagles Super Bowl wins w/guys supposed to be his back up winning
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : NFL thought it would get more attention week preceding Super Bowl.
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : Yes, the Pro Bowl. It was played Sunday before Super Bowl from 2010-2022
packerfanoutwest (10-Feb) : pro bowl
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : From 2010 to 2022, it was played on the Sunday before the Super Bowl
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : They moved it to the BYE week before Super Bowl several years ago.
packerfanoutwest (10-Feb) : it was always after the SB.....
beast (10-Feb) : Though I stop following pro bowl years ago
beast (10-Feb) : I thought the pro game was before the Super Bowl?
packerfanoutwest (10-Feb) : ok now for the Pro Bowl Game in Hawaii
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : If I was Philly I would try to end it instead of punting it
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : VICTORY! We have (moral) victory!
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : Hey they mentioned that we 3-peted
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : seems to me the 49ers should have traded Aiyuk when they had the chance
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : if the Eagles get it down to the 1, do they Tush Push or give it to Barkley?
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : 49ers have a money problem if they want to sign their QB
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : Wait for real? Didn't he just get an extension two years ago?
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : 49ers gonna trade Deebo. Interesting
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : Replays always never seem to show the holdings
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : Great throw by Hurts
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : Where Carter falls prey to bad off the field influences (to be clear, not saying he'd clip someone though)
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : Had Carter not gone to Philly were they already had a lot of old college friends, he ends up in a similar spot to Aaron Hernandez
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : I think some of his coaches told scouts to stay away
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : the street racing incident+conditioning and motivation problems
beast (10-Feb) : Then Carter was street racing, where the other car crashed and people died... and other teams were scared to pick Carter for some reason
beast (10-Feb) : I think the Saints traded up, giving their next year 1st to the Eagles, and then they sucked and Eagles got the 10th overall pick
packerfanoutwest (10-Feb) : wtf Barkley?
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : Getting Carter and Nolan Smith in the first round in 2023 was pretty darn good
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : for some reason i'm thinking of a draft where the Eagles where in the mid 20s and a top player fell all the way to them
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : I think so. I would need to look it up. Think it may have been Carolina's pick.
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : i'm not sure who i'm thinking of now
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : oh fuck me i messed that up
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : Jordan Davis was 13th overall
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : Carter was 9th overall
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : Eagles had 15th and 10th selections, moved to 13 and 9 to get Davis and Carter back to back
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : Eagles traded up for Carter, didn't they?
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : Obviously he was a huge risk but getting a top 5 talent on the dline in the mid 20s is fortuitous
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : Jalen Carter falling into their lap certainly helps
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : And we could only wish to have this type of D
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : It's not like Philly has had low draft picks, but has managed to get themselves a top notch pass rush. We spend so much draft capital of D
packerfanoutwest (10-Feb) : another crap halftime show
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : I think it is over, but then I think of Atlanta and want Philly to go in with the same intensity in the second half
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : And with a Pass Rush that might as well be on a milk cartoon and no Jaire
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