and hopefully a better than lousy playoff record too. I think also there is more to it than wins although that is how the general public will look at it.

This year for example. What is different from last years 13-3 team numbers wise?

Was there a big drop off in:
Passing yards-nope
Passing percentage-nope
Passing TDs-nope
INt/s-nope
Passing first downs-nope

Was there a drop off in:
Close games where the D held on-yep
points allowed-yep
sacks-big yep
pressures-big yep

overall punting-yep
kick coverage-yep

I find it kind of ironic that the one position where the numbers are very parrallel to last year is in the QB spot and that last years QB did about what this years did numbers wise but people have all these questions about this QB.

I mean statistics over a couple of games can be misleading but numbers over basically an entire year tell many more truths than lies. The truth is here we have gotten the same basic production out of the QB but we have failed to match the production in a lot of other areas from last year.

I guess what I am saying is a lot of the barking may be going up the wrong tree. All I know is when I go into statistics and click on "Passing Offense" the Green Bay Packers are higher up there than I would have imagined going into this season.

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I guess I don't understand why we're still comparing the two, especially in terms of this season. Their respective situations are too different to do that, IMO.

But what the hell - maybe this is all a part of the process of purging the whole Favre Fiasco from our collective system, or something. Seems like an endless circular argument to me, but if it has to happen, okay.

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Warhawk.. I agree there is more to in than wins.. but in the end, the team and their perceived leader as a QB will be judged up that.

Just win Baby.

Team to me... top of the organization to the water boy on the sidelines.. if you have breakdowns anywhere in the process we see the effects on Sunday.

That is the nuts and bolts of it.. the makeup of this team this year just didn't have enough to win more than they lost.

That is the end game.. the dynamics are countless.. but those two series of numbers is all we see.

I love the underbelly stuff.. the x's and o's of the game more than I like the end results.. and I can tell you this year that was we have lots we can build upon but a number of things that need work.

Confidence and swagger being one.. fundamentals and focus being another.

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That's what is so fundamentally wrong with this argument. It accepts the premise that ultimately, the QB is the one who finds the victory, rather than the team as the unit.

I'd be curious to see a statistical analysis of every game of Favre's career and see how many of them he objectively "won."

But it wouldn't matter. The fanatics would give him the credit for engineering every victory anyway. It's so boring.

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If ever a year showed you win as a team and lose as a team it's this year for the Packers. How many games did Rodgers walk off the field late in the game with a lead only to stand on the sidelines and watch the defense piss it away?

Of course I never have bought into that "judge the QB by his wins" crap anyhow. I thought one of Brett Favre's best years was '05 when he was out there slinging it all over the place with nearly every good player we had sitting on the sidelines hurt. He showed courage and leadership and never gave up and I rooted louder and harder for him that year than in some when we made the playoffs.

I thought Brett Favre walked off the field a "winner" way more often in '05 than any won/loss record shows but hey, that's me. Not everyone probably feels the same I'm sure.

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Curious, how many times did Rodgers lead a drive that would have put a cushion on the lead late in a game?

I haven't looked it up or tried to be cute.. I really wonder how many times Rodgers and this offense had an opportunity to seal away a victory with an additional score late.. instead of playing the we can't stop the routine on defense.

I don't pin the losses to Rodgers alone.. we as a team didn't pick each other up when the other segment failed. And neither the offense or the defense gave the other a margin of breathing room.. minus one game.. the Bears game. Neither unit ran hot together.. if the defense was on.. the offense struggled.. or vicey versey.. it never clicked.

I like the future of the Packers.. without a doubt, we have work to do and points of players games that need refining and growth.

As a board, we seem to think anytime a player is criticized that it is throwing them under the bus.. when in fact it is merely a acknowledgment of areas of the game in which it can be improved upon.

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I think the intellectual quality of our discussions would rise exponentially if every post containing the phrase "Brett Favre" or any permutation thereof (outside the appropriate section, obviously) were automatically screened out.

Yes, I'm an asshole for saying this. Yes, I'm comfortable with that.

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You aren't an asshole. We are all just ticked off that our team sucks right now. We just need to win the last two games.

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Well, we averaged 26.5 points a game which I would think would be enough, don't you? Regardless of what drive they got them.

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I would be curious to know if a team that has scored as much as the Packers have this season has ever had such a bad record in the history of the NFL.

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