4PackGirl
16 years ago
wow - nfl comin down hard on the guys, eh? i completely agree that they alone are responsible for whatever goes in their bodies. when it comes to "nutritional supplements", by now every player should think - RED FLAG every time they take one of these!
DakotaT
16 years ago
I was wondering if it was beyond the realgm of possibilty here that all these suspended players may have taken the banned substance in addition to the Star Caps? I don't believe Kevin Williams has a weight problem, but it isn't too much of a stretch for me to believe he was masking steroids. Now Pat Williams, I have no problem believing needs diet pills.
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dfosterf
16 years ago

I was wondering if it was beyond the realgm of possibilty here that all these suspended players may have taken the banned substance in addition to the Star Caps? I don't believe Kevin Williams has a weight problem, but it isn't too much of a stretch for me to believe he was masking steroids. Now Pat Williams, I have no problem believing needs diet pills.

"DakotaT" wrote:



According to several posters at PPO, who did a bit of research on the subject for the very reason you brought up--- These pills also mask/confuse tests for marijuana usage. I can't go back and get the exact post, as they are up around 70 pages in there right now.

As to Jolly, two things are going on. As I understand it, his violation(s) are presently under the personal conduct policy, and because he has no "priors", the commish seems to be holding in abeyance any punishments until the legal system takes their pound of flesh from him. It has been argued that the commish doesn't do anything until after a conviction, which is false. It is my understanding he could decide to suspend him if he so chooses, apparently he has decided to wait. This isn't special treatment, it is simply how he has approached things in the past...case-by-case, if you will. Pack93z/others can correct that, but I'm pretty sure this is how it is. All that being said, Jolly has troubles...big ones, and I strongly suspect that he is going to get creamed...both in court and by the commish... he was holdin' a felony-full of cough syrup/codeine, whatever.
Pack93z
  • Pack93z
  • Select Member Topic Starter
16 years ago
Foster.. you are correct.. these infractions fall under different lines of policies.. it is debatable that they should but they do. Steroid policy verse Conduct.. more times than not, the league office lets the legal system run its course on the Conduct end of it.. but the NFL is the judge, jury and executioner on the Performance enhancing end...

Personally.. I think illegal drug issues should fall into the Performance side of things.. but the CBA is pretty clear on what falls into it and what doesn't... the Players Union signed off on that policy.. that is where I see this injunction that the Williams are throwing out there is going nowhere but maybe buying them some time.. you know to finish out the season.

There are underlying issues in here though that the league office wing of approving and advising players what is okay and not.. they dropped the ball on this deal.

But it all reverts back to the language in the policy that the player is solely responsible for what they put into their body and they are to call into the league office to validate if an item is cleared or not.. these players didn't do that.. injunction should fail on that wording right there.

I disagree with the policy, but it is what it is. Union and League approved.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
dfosterf
16 years ago
From PFT-

Quote:

Amid reports (per Chris Mortensen of ESPN) that the attorney for Vikings defensive tackles Pat and Kevin Williams will be filing suit on Wednesday and could sue both the NFL and the NFL Players Association were told that the NFLPA currently is plotting a challenge to the StarCaps suspensions, which would include an attempt to block the suspensions until the lawsuit is resolved.

The lawsuit, as we explained in a Tuesday night item for SportingNews.com, could include theories arising from the failure of Dr. John Lombardo, administrator of the leagues steroids policy, to disclose to players that StarCaps secretly contains a prescription medication. The suit also could allege that the NFL violated the terms of the Collective Bargaining Agreement in suspending the players who took StarCaps, given that the league knew StarCaps secretly contained a banned substance and didnt specifically warn the players not to take it.

Technically, the steroids policy isnt part of the CBA. Instead, Article XLIV, Section 6(b) of the 2006 amendment to the CBA states that the existing policy will remain in effect, subject to modifications to which both sides agree.

Thus, to prevail on the latter count, the NFLPA would need to persuade the Court that the leagues failure to disclose its knowledge that StarCaps contains Bumetanide in some way violates the terms of the steroids policy. It could be an uphill climb, since the policy is clear players are responsible for what is in their bodies, and they are encouraged to use only those supplements that appear on the leagues pre-approved list.

The more intriguing possibility, in our view, is that the NFLPA will be sued as by two or more players while the NFLPA also is suing on their behalf.

Under the law, a union may be sued for breach of the duty of fair representation. The law requires proof of something more than mere negligence; the plaintiffs must show that the unions actions were arbitrary, discriminatory, or in bad faith.

The argument against the union apparently would be that agreeing to a procedure that allows the initial decision and the appeal to be controlled by the Commissioner of the NFL is per se evidence that the union behaved in an arbitrary manner and/or that the union exhibited bad faith as to any players who are accused of violating the steroids policy, the substance abuse policy, or the Personal Conduct Policy.

And, frankly, its hard for us to disagree. How in the hell did the union ever agree to let the league be the final arbiter of these appeals?

Its like having the prosecutor in the Plaxico Burress case also serve as the judge. And as the appeals court. And as each of the nine members of the United States Supreme Court.

So at a time when it appears that the league might be flexing its muscles under these policies in order to goad the union into offering major concessions during the next round of CBA talks in order to get the league to agree to refer the appeal hearings to a neutral arbitrator, the NFLPA might find itself liable to one or more players for failing to secure such a procedure in the first place.

_________________________________________________

These Vikings are experts in the court system---Frankly, I don't think the league or the player's association stands a chance against them...they simply have way too much experience in Minneapolis :icon_smile:
DakotaT
16 years ago
I guess if they don't like the rules made by their employer, they always have the right to quit and seek other employment.
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Pack93z
  • Pack93z
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16 years ago
Well there goes Ziggy's Christmas present from Rodger.. challenging the league office will at the very least cost him is fruitcake and nuts via Goodell.

:lol:
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
dfosterf
16 years ago

Well there goes Ziggy's Christmas present from Rodger.. challenging the league office will at the very least cost him is fruitcake and nuts via Goodell.

:lol:

"pack93z" wrote:



Maybe the next time the Vikes tamper with one of our players, or one of their DE's repeatedly delivers cheap-shots, or half of their team is caught with a bunch of hookers, or.....well, maybe they will be sorry for tryin' to mess with the commish...

I can see it now... Referee: "Personal foul , #69, defense, 15 yards, 1st down."

Jared Allen: "Jeez, ref, you guys used to wait until AFTER the National Anthem was sung."
Cheesey
16 years ago
The whole Vikings TEAM is a "personal foul!"LOLOL!!!
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dfosterf
16 years ago
I just read about it on the Minneapolis-Star-Tribune website.

They filed for a restraining order---

Not in Federal Court
Not even in State Court
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Hennipin County District Court--- courtroom approximately 100 yards from the metrodome.

(I swear you might think I'm making the next part up)

Judge Gary Larson presiding.

Definitely of Minnesota Twins vs. MLB fame--- finding for the Twins, amazingly enough.

Not sure if he's the former Minnesota Viking or the cartoonist, or perhaps both.

Home cooking in Minneapolis tonight!
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Zero2Cool (29m) : The only team I know is Texas from that. Who are the other three?
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Zero2Cool (3h) : E. Cooper. Rookie of Month. Defense.
Mucky Tundra (8-Jan) : @AaronNagler · 2m Both Jordan Love and Malik Willis were Limited participants at Packers practice today.
Zero2Cool (8-Jan) : Johnson didn't make it until 2020. Ring 2023. 🤷 Personally, he should have been in years prior to Hall.
Zero2Cool (8-Jan) : HUMP DAY
beast (8-Jan) : Guys that have a good shot at making the NFL Hall of Fame usually get into their teams pretty fast
beast (8-Jan) : Yeah, but is Kampman and the others in the NFL Hall of Fame?
Zero2Cool (8-Jan) : Johnson was Hall of Fame, 2020. Should haev been in Ring a year later, not three years.
Zero2Cool (8-Jan) : I could be wrong there though
Zero2Cool (8-Jan) : Guys like Kampman, Tim Harris, Al Harris, etc all over 15 years. Hall of Fame is 5 year wait
Zero2Cool (8-Jan) : I guess I see players in Packers Hall come way later
beast (8-Jan) : Yeah, usually teams hall of fames are a much lower bar than the NFL
Zero2Cool (8-Jan) : is it uncommon for Hall before Ring?
Zero2Cool (8-Jan) : S Xavier McKinney named first-team All-Pro by NFLPA
beast (8-Jan) : I missed it, sorry, but he got into the NFL Hall of Fame years before that
Zero2Cool (8-Jan) : Jones took his sweet ole time!
Zero2Cool (8-Jan) : Yeah, he's in the ring of honor, just saw video and his name is up there
Zero2Cool (8-Jan) : Didn't they have a thing in 2023 for Jimmy's ring of honor? I swear I saw it
beast (8-Jan) : Though if they're legitimately trying to re-sign MM, then it makes sense.
beast (8-Jan) : Jerry Jones still hasn't put Jimmy Johnson in the Ring of Honor, but he's in the NFL's Hall of Fame, Jones is petty
Mucky Tundra (8-Jan) : Unless the Cowboys are planning an extension, seems kinda petty
beast (8-Jan) : Cowboys denied Bears request
Mucky Tundra (6-Jan) : From what I'm reading, MM is under contract through the 14th of January; after that he's free game
Zero2Cool (6-Jan) : McCarthy let go or not extended??
Mucky Tundra (6-Jan) : Chicago Bears have asked the Dallas Cowboys permission to interview Mike McCarthy for head coaching vacancy
Zero2Cool (6-Jan) : The winners page that is
Zero2Cool (6-Jan) : I was not hoping for that. It messes up the page lol
beast (6-Jan) : Thank you, and I was really opening we were going to get 4 or more tied for the top 3.
beast (6-Jan) : Thank you, and I was really opening we were going to get 4 or more tied for the top 3.
beast (6-Jan) : Thank you, and I was really opening we were going to get 4 or more tied for the top 3
Zero2Cool (6-Jan) : congrats beast on 2024 !
Zero2Cool (6-Jan) : congrats porky on winning 2023 pick'em! (oops sorry)
Zero2Cool (6-Jan) : Packers have $60M+ of 2025 cap space on paper TODAY.
Mucky Tundra (6-Jan) : Missed FG into a Lions TD; that'll do pig, that'll do
Mucky Tundra (6-Jan) : That might be it for the Vikings
Mucky Tundra (6-Jan) : Oh so the refs do know what intentional grounding is
Mucky Tundra (6-Jan) : what the hell was that Goff?! Not much pressure and he just air mails it to Harrison
Mucky Tundra (6-Jan) : They really need to to get rid of the auto first down for illegal contact
Martha Careful (6-Jan) : watching the Vikings and Lions it's understandable why they swept the Packers. So much better product
Mucky Tundra (6-Jan) : Even when GB got pressure he was throwing darts; vs no pressure on that last pass he just air mails an open guy
Zero2Cool (6-Jan) : didn't have guys in his face ... pressure makes difference
Mucky Tundra (6-Jan) : Where was this Darnold vs GB?
Mucky Tundra (6-Jan) : BALL DON'T LIE
Mucky Tundra (6-Jan) : how was that not a safety? Goff throws it at an offensive lineman
Mucky Tundra (6-Jan) : Zero, I thought that was a given! ;)
Mucky Tundra (6-Jan) : Zero I looked through earlier and noticed the same thing. Bonkers year. I just wonder if beast put any money on games
Zero2Cool (6-Jan) : I'm hoping for BLOODBATH. Pummel one another.
Zero2Cool (6-Jan) : 8 people in pick'em would have won any year with their total lol
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