isocleas2
14 years ago
I'm with Rock on this one. A million bucks over 2 years with no cap is worth it for a dynamic return man. Even if he only provides a marginal upgrade over Tramon and Jordy, its worth it not having to worry about the possible injury.
Greg C.
14 years ago
The salary cap is not a problem, but this is not pretend money we are talking about. A million bucks is a million bucks, and when you have a business you don't spend that kind of money unless you are going to get a lot in return. If they thought this punt returner was not going to be much of an upgrade over the guys we have, then there was no reason to sign him.

Nobody's ever answered the question that someone asked in another thread about how often punt returners get injured. I think the good ones are good at protecting themselves. It's not like a running back where you have to run into defenders. Any time a player is on the field there is a chance of injury. It could happen on a punt return. But it could also happen on any play from scrimmage. You put your best players on the field and try to win the game.
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Zero2Cool
14 years ago

A couple like in 8. You want to tell me that thats enough to throw that amount of money at the guy? Thats matt cassel like crazy. I think he showed his amazing tlanet the year after that, gaining a whopping 3.8 ypc. And hes not the elite guy he looked like in 2007 and which we paid for bigtime. It was an idiotic time to just give the guy a huge contract.

"Rockmolder" wrote:



I see the title of this thread, but I have no clue where it's going. With that said, I'm gonna bite on the Grant contract. Show some details as to why it was outrageous please. I'm a bit ignorant on the facts with it. From what I remember, it was incentive laden and he's being paid his amount based on certain targets. One of which was 1,250 which he just barely missed in '09 that cost him I believe $500k

Grant started in 7 games and nearly got 1,000 yards. (he came in another game very early in the first quarter of what could easily be considered an 8th start.)
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Dexter_Sinister
14 years ago
The problem is a small group of people can't seem to understand that any ball carrier needs blockers. One player can't beat all 11 of the defenders on their own like you seem to expect them to.

Grant is the second leading rusher in the last 2.5 years that he has been a starter. If you don't get that, nothing I can type will get you to realize it. That is why that isn't worth a reply. You won't get it any way. Because you don't want to.

He did that with the worst O-line in the NFL for half a year. To me that means if we had a moderately decent line, he would have had quite a few more yards. Maybe up to a full yard per carry more on his average last year. The second half of the year he had 200 more yards than the first half. If he gets that better blocking and gets that extra 200 yards, he averages over 5 yards per last year. Is that over rated?

The kick return game is the exact same thing. We had plenty of decent kick returns. The penalties that called them back were the problem. Not the guy carrying the ball.

It should be a simple concept. If you want a return for a TD, BLOCK SOMEONE AND DON'T GET A PENALTY.

Quit looking and the little sparkly things and you might notice there is a game going on. From all indications, a pretty good one too.
I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.
Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
Stevetarded
14 years ago

NOt evne worth a reply? So the problem is that you guys just don't see the position as something that important. A better KR/PR adds nearly as much yards over an avarage KR/PR as Grant does over some random, more average RB.

A KR/PR will make more impact than a rotational LB or a S who's always injnured. I don't know why its so blasphemous to make a comparison. I'm not saying that the guy makes as much money as our other guys do but this amount of money is nothing.

"Rockmolder" wrote:



Smith averaged about 3.5 more yards per return than Jordy did last year so the question is 3.5ypr worth over a million dollars? (and that's if he is even back from concussions/knee injury to where he was at last season)
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Zero2Cool
14 years ago

The problem is a small group of people can't seem to understand that any ball carrier needs blockers. One player can't beat all 11 of the defenders on their own like you seem to expect them to.

"Dexter_Sinister" wrote:


The key is paying a fumble prone fella nearly a million dollars to return kicks/punts, then the ballcarrier will dodge 10 plus the punter/kicker! :P



heh 😛 @ Rock ( sorry bud had to give you a lil jab )
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Packers_Finland
14 years ago

You put your best players on the field and try to win the game.

"Greg C." wrote:



Yeah, and Clifton Smith would be a better returner than Jordy, Tramon or Jennings.

The injury risk on punt and kick returns is much bigger than on snaps from scrimmage.

And seriously, I still don't get how all of you guys are worried about the salary? I mean what the hell? Is it seriously a deal-breaking issue if you have to lose 700k of net money (you lose 325k at the least when cutting a player)? It's not out of your pocket, it's out of this team's pocket, and with the kind of money this team has to use, a 700k bump to the team's whole salary is fucking irrelevant. The salary is NOT an issue.
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yooperfan
14 years ago
And now back to Charlie Peprah!
Rockmolder
14 years ago
Re-reading my own posts, I think it's pretty obvious that I might not've been totally sober. I'll re-do my point.

The problem is a small group of people can't seem to understand that any ball carrier needs blockers. One player can't beat all 11 of the defenders on their own like you seem to expect them to.

Grant is the second leading rusher in the last 2.5 years that he has been a starter. If you don't get that, nothing I can type will get you to realize it. That is why that isn't worth a reply. You won't get it any way. Because you don't want to.

He did that with the worst O-line in the NFL for half a year. To me that means if we had a moderately decent line, he would have had quite a few more yards. Maybe up to a full yard per carry more on his average last year. The second half of the year he had 200 more yards than the first half. If he gets that better blocking and gets that extra 200 yards, he averages over 5 yards per last year. Is that over rated?

The kick return game is the exact same thing. We had plenty of decent kick returns. The penalties that called them back were the problem. Not the guy carrying the ball.

It should be a simple concept. If you want a return for a TD, BLOCK SOMEONE AND DON'T GET A PENALTY.

Quit looking and the little sparkly things and you might notice there is a game going on. From all indications, a pretty good one too.

"Dexter_Sinister" wrote:



I'm not ignoring blocking at all. Of course you need some blocking if you're going anywhere, but dear lord, if you watched any game last year, you saw Jordy running up to the 20 and into the back of his own men every single time.

If you saw the rotation door at PR, you must've agreed with me that it wasn't pretty most of the time. Tramon is the only one who can actually make something happen, someone who can dance around a little, but he's a starter right now at a horribly shallow position. The $1.65 would be worth it for the improvement on KRs and as an insurance policy for Tramon, alone.

And btw, on KRs and PRs, there's always some guys going to come free. That's what makes Hester and Cribbs so good. They make 3-4 guys miss on one single play if they go for the TD and then outrun them. Nelson tends to run into those people. Blocking on returns isn't as straigth forward as on normal runs.

Also, if you break a big one and it gets called back on a penalty, that usually means that that penalty might've had something to do with it. Especially if he runs into the pile every single time a flag isn't thrown.

And then for Grant. He was very, very good in 2007. So good that you couldn't let him play for the little amount of money he would get. I like that we gave him an incentive filled contract. Thing is, though, he got a huge contract on less than 200 carries. That's a pretty small sample, especially if everyone was focusing on the pass after our running game had been horrible for quite a while.

That he's the 2nd leading rusher does indeed not say that much to me. Mainly because it's a cumulative stat. This has just as much to do with getting nearly 800 carries over 2.5 years as it does with his skill. Or do you want to tell me that Grant's a better rusher than DeAngelo Williams, MJD, Ray Rice etc?

You can see a whole lot if you watch the "sparkly things". You can see that Grant has little wiggle, isn't quite evasive and doesn't exactly plow through people, either. The thing he has going for him is his speed in combination with his size. He doesn't get injured, doesn't put the ball on the turf, but he's nothing flashy. His fate is tied completely to our O-line. You could see that much in his stats last season. And there are about 5 guys in every draft who look good behind a good O-line.

I'm not saying that Grant is a bad player, but he just hasn't shown a whole lot that makes me think he's a great back or anything.

He's a Dorsey Levens who can stay healthy.
British
14 years ago
On the return issue, Packer fans should be the one group who can fully appreciate the benefit of a major return threat. We have the only special teams player to be named Superbowl MVP. $1m over two years doesn't seem much in the NFL today. A dynamic returner has genuine potential to swing a game in his team's favour - which is exactly what you need especially in the playoffs. I suspect we'll get to the playoffs even with indifferent return play, but once we come up against the best teams in the post season we need to squeeze every last % out of out team and shoddy special teams could cost us.

As for Peprah, I'm pleased he's doing well. But I fully expect him to drop to #4 once Bigby gets back after game 6. When that happens, assuming there are no season ending injuries, I guess Derrick Martin is most in danger of being cut to make room.
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Mucky Tundra (2h) : Houston getting dog walked by Baltimore
packerfanoutwest (7h) : Feliz Navidad!
Zero2Cool (12h) : Merry Christmas!
beast (21h) : Merry Christmas 🎄🎁
beast (24-Dec) : Sounds like no serious injuries from the Saints game and Jacobs and Watson should play in the Vikings game
packerfanoutwest (24-Dec) : both games Watson missed, Packers won
Martha Careful (24-Dec) : I hope all of you have a Merry Christmas!
Mucky Tundra (24-Dec) : Oh I know about Jacobs, I just couldn't pass up an opportunity to mimic Zero lol
buckeyepackfan (24-Dec) : Jacobs was just sat down, Watson re-injured that knee that kept him out 1 game earlier
buckeyepackfan (24-Dec) : I needed .14 that's. .14 points for the whole 4th quarter to win and go to the SB. Lol
Mucky Tundra (24-Dec) : Jacobs gonna be OK???
Zero2Cool (24-Dec) : Watson gonna be OK???
packerfanoutwest (24-Dec) : Inactives tonight for the Pack: Alexander- knee Bullard - ankle Williams - quad Walker -ankle Monk Heath
packerfanoutwest (24-Dec) : No Jaire, but hopefully the front 7 destroys the line of scrimmage & forces Rattler into a few passes to McKinney.
packerfanoutwest (24-Dec) : minny could be #1 seed and the Lions #5 seed
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : We'd have same Division and Conference records. Strength of schedule we edge them
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I just checked. What tie breaker?
bboystyle (23-Dec) : yes its possible but unlikely. If we do get the 5th, we face the NFCS winner
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : Ahh, ok.
bboystyle (23-Dec) : yes due to tie breaker
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I mean, unlikely, yes, but mathematically, 5th is possible by what I'm reading.
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : If Vikings lose out, Packers win out, Packers get 5th, right?
bboystyle (23-Dec) : Minny isnt going to lose out so 5th seed is out of the equation. We are playing for the 6th or 7th seed which makes no difference
Mucky Tundra (23-Dec) : beast, the ad revenue goes to the broadcast company but they gotta pay to air the game on their channel/network
beast (23-Dec) : If we win tonight the game is still relative in terms of 5th, 6th or 7th seed... win and it's 5th or 6th, lose and it's 6th or 7th
beast (23-Dec) : Mucky, I thought the ad revenue went to the broadcasting companies or the NFL, at least not directly
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I think the revenue share is moot, isn't it? That's the CBA an Salary Cap handling that.
bboystyle (23-Dec) : i mean game becomes irrelevant if we win tonight. Just a game where we are trying to play spoilers to Vikings chance at the #1 seed
Mucky Tundra (23-Dec) : beast, I would guess ad revenue from more eyes watching tv
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I would think it would hurt the home team because people would have to cancel last minute maybe? i dunno
beast (23-Dec) : I agree that it's BS for fans planning on going to the game. But how does it bring in more money? I'm guessing indirectly?
packerfanoutwest (23-Dec) : bs on flexing the game....they do it for the $$league$$, not the hometown fans
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I see what you did there Mucky
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : dammit. 3:25pm
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : Packers Vikings flexed to 3:35pm
Mucky Tundra (23-Dec) : Upon receiving the news about Luke Musgrave, I immediately fell to the ground
Mucky Tundra (23-Dec) : Yeah baby!
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : LUKE MUSGRAVE PLAYING TONIGHT~!~~~~WOWHOAAOHAOAA yah
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I wanna kill new QB's ... blitz the crap out of them.
beast (23-Dec) : Barry seemed to get too conservative against new QBs, Hafley doesn't have that issue
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : However, we seem to struggle vs new QB's
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : Should be moot point, cuz Packers should win tonight.
packerfanoutwest (23-Dec) : ok I stand corrected
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : Ok, yes, you are right. I see that now how they get 7th
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : 5th - Packers win out, Vikings lose out. Maybe?
beast (23-Dec) : Saying no to the 6th lock.
beast (23-Dec) : No, with the Commanders beating the Eagles, Packers could have a good chance of 6th or 7th unless the win out
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I think if Packers win, they are locked 6th with chance for 5th.
beast (23-Dec) : But it doesn't matter, as the Packers win surely win one of their remaining games
beast (23-Dec) : This is not complex, just someone doesn't want to believe reality
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