Formo
14 years ago

Actually, one could make a solid argument -- both from observation and from historical events -- that it is in fact women in the Western world who have historically been treated poorly, while women in the Islamic world have been and continue to be treated like queens. The fact that women in the Islamic world are not treated as we happen to treat women does not mean they are mistreated; it merely means they are treated differently.

A feminist scholar once said -- and I agree with her -- that she would believe in the ancient oppression of women when she found evidence of a female revolution. None exists. If women were truly treated as poorly as we, in our arrogant contempt of our ancestors, chauvinistically like to tell ourselves, they would have revolted, just as women in the West did indeed eventually revolt. The fact is, they never did. In fact, the mere idea was so ludicrous to thinkers of the time that it was a subject of comedy. The play Lysistrata ("Army-Disbander") by Aristophanes, for example, centers around the efforts of Lysistrata to lead a sex strike. Basically, the women tell their men that they will refuse to sleep with them until they stop fighting their foolish wars. Of course, the punchline of the play is that the movement fails spectacularly, because the women find their men so sexy that they can't resist them -- and to a woman, they all rush back into their husbands' arms.

Likewise, there has never been a women's revolt in any Islamic country, not even the ones we point to as being the most oppressive (Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc.). The fact is that a lot of the practices we regard as "oppressive" are in fact promoted and enforced by the women themselves: veils, female circumcision (which the king of Saudi Arabia outlawed over the vociferous protests of his wives), etc. Indeed, in many Islamic countries, women are quite powerful: a recent vice-president of Iran was a woman, many women serve on the parliaments of both Iraq and Iran, and the list goes on. As one Saudi woman said to me, anyone who thinks Saudi women are oppressed has no clue how they live on a day-to-day basis. They get up when they want to, they go to the spa almost everyday, they get manicures and pedicures, they drive nice cars, they have maidservants, they don't have to work unless they want to, they have almost endless leisure.

In the early days of the Iraq war, it was not at all uncommon to see a woman walking unaccompanied down the streets of Baghdad in blue jeans. As the situation has deteriorated, however, they have been forced, for their own safety, to walk around in full niqab, accompanied at all times by men.

So I ask you, who has done the real oppression of women in that country?

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



WTF does that have anything to do with the 'community center' in NYC?

Yes, I'm busting your balls Rourke. Deal with it.
UserPostedImage
Thanks to TheViking88 for the sig!!
Packers_Finland
14 years ago
Face it Formo, this thread has been off topic since at least page 3.
This is a placeholder
Formo
14 years ago

Face it Formo, this thread has been off topic since at least page 3.

"Packers_Finland" wrote:



Meh... Not really. There have been some sporatic posts off topic.. (someone's Ireland post, Zombie's response to that post... but he wrapped it up with the Muslim topic at the end).

I just like busting NSD's balls mostly, though.
UserPostedImage
Thanks to TheViking88 for the sig!!
digsthepack
14 years ago
Nonstop...you overlook honor killings; the couple recently stoned (the death kind, not the fun kind) for marrying outside their parents wishes; the tribal nature of their culture that has different religious sects blowing the shit out of one another; the killing of innocents; hiding like cowards amongst their own people knowing that retaliation will inevitably kill more innocents; slavery; and so much more.

Look, every culture has some positives and negatives...the balance of which varies from one to the next. That said, if you are trying to suggest that all cultures are equal, it is complete tripe.
State Motto: "Wisconsin, our serial murderers eat their kill!"
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago

WTF does that have anything to do with the 'community center' in NYC?

"Formo" wrote:



It has no more to do with the community center than the statements by Zombieslayer and others that they don't like the way Muslims treat women.

Of course, the way Muslims treat women is far more a function of their individual cultures than it is of their religion. The Qur'an affords women protections that Western women can only dream of. For example, a man in the United States can unceremoniously dump a woman on her ass at any time. Not so under Islamic law. The Qur'an mandates that a man must wait a minimum of three months before finalizing a divorce, to ensure that she isn't pregnant. Then, if it turns out she is pregnant, he cannot divorce her for several months after she delivers. At that point, if he decides to go through with the divorce, he must not only provide for the child until it reaches adulthood, he must give his ex-wife an allowance as long as she lives (or, presumably, until she remarries).

The fact that some misogynistic cultures happen to embrace Islam does not mean that Islam is an misogynistic any more than does the fact that misogynistic cultures (e.g., Western Europe and America) embrace Christianity indicate that Christianity is a misogynistic religion.

In these debates, people frequently -- tragically, in my opinion -- conflate religion and culture. They aren't the same thing. People frequently fail to see how adaptable and flexible religion is. What Americans think of as "Christian morality" is hardly biblical at all. It is merely the justification of Greco-Roman/European preferences and biases with convenient Bible verses (while frequently ignoring many other inconvenient ones).

The Christianity and Judaism of the Bible far more resemble Islam than do their modern, European-influenced variants.
UserPostedImage
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago

Nonstop...you overlook . . .

"digsthepack" wrote:



No, I overlook none of these things. Those are functions of individual, tribal-based cultures, which have adopted Islam and attempt to justify their practices with Islam in the same hypocritical way that many Westerners have attempted to justify various practices using Christianity.

Those practices you describe far predate Islam and they will probably survive Islam. Neither are they exclusive to Islamic cultures. Those same practices have existed in Christian cultures, not to mention Buddhist and Hindu cultures.

Cultures pick and choose from among their religions' teachings as they find it convenient. Muslims are just as guilty of this as are Christians, Hindus, and Jews. In order to make a sound argument on these issues, one must learn how to separate culture from religion.

An appropriate criticism of a cultural practice is not necessarily an indictment of the religious preference of that culture.
UserPostedImage
doddpower
14 years ago

Simply put, they have the RIGHT to build the mosque/outreach campus on the property they own. But, it is in very poor taste to do so....especially when the financiers are murky, and the main Imam is rather controversial, and an adherent of Sharia law. And, let us not overlook the fact that throughout history, Muslims HAVE built on/near the sites of their greatest victories. Whether you wish to admit it or not, there is vast symbolism for the Muslim people...particularly the terrorists amongst them....in the placement of this building.

My biggest gripe about the whole good Muslim/bad Muslim arguement...as simple as the analogy sounds....is the fact that they offer no significant input, or cooperation, in ridding the evil amongst themselves. To that end, I think they own some of the responsibility for problems that the darker elements of their faith practice.

"digsthepack" wrote:




This sounds like an argument straight out of the mouth of Sean Hannity. One of his main arguments is how they treat woman, which on the surface is fine. However, if what NSD says is true at all, then it would seem to make that argument invalid.

Hannitys other main argument is the Sharia law thing, which I honestly don't know much about. He talks about how 'they' want to bring Sharia law into the mainstream of America. I've yet to hear much proof of this fact other then some opinion he placed on an out of context quote. Any input on this?

And his third argument is the financial side of the building. However, if the company Hannity represents, Fox News, does in fact have serious financial ties and ownership by the same people, then Fox New's itself should not be allowed to operate . . . by his logic. I believe I posted a link to what I'm talking about earlier in this thread.

I'm just thankful to have access to many different sources of information.

As many have said, most aren't debating that this isn't in poor taste. However, where do we as a country draw the line? Should the government step in anytime something is in 'poor taste?' Just because the extreme amongst them might place some symbolic significance of its location is irrelevant. They can think that September 11th destroyed us as a country, etc. etc. all they want but that doesn't mean they are correct. Let them think what they want. The terrorist as we like to call them still don't have the upper hand, and won't, unless they win the war of ideals and fear, both of which are largely fueled by Americans.
4PackGirl
14 years ago
i don't see how the way a culture treats their women has anything to do with someone's right to build what they want, where they want it.

why is it ok that there's a strip club & otb near ground zero but it's not ok for a religious community center to be near there? perhaps i'm assuming too much but what are the chances in a 2 block area that someone of muslim faith doesn't own a business, apartment, etc near ground zero? should they be thrown out of the neighborhood as well?
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago
If a bigot has opinion X and I share that opinion, am I a bigot?

I said it earlier in this thread, and I'll say it again. I think Cheesey errs here in his argument. If you will, he's "wrong".

But I don't think that makes his argument bigoted or him a bigot.

Committer of errors of logic and of inference. Yes.

But bigotry is more than error. Bigotry is moral failing. And that is as big a jump in logic as saying Islam is a terrorist religion based on the events of 9/11.

Just as there may be a confounding variable explaining why all those terrorist acts were committed (I tried to suggest that "age" and "maturity" might be confounding variables), so, too, there might be a confounding variable explaining why one of us holds to his/her position.

Not everyone who draws erroneous conclusions about "Muslim terrorists" is bigoted. And not all of those erroneous conclusions indicate bigotry.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Packers_Finland
14 years ago
Someone mentioned Fox News?

[youtube]35eRxxZ-Ar0[/youtube]
This is a placeholder
Users browsing this topic
    Fan Shout
    Zero2Cool (14h) : Ok, will do.
    wpr (15h) : Kevin, donate it to a local food pantry or whatever she wants to do with it. Thanks
    wpr (15h) : Kevin,
    Zero2Cool (18h) : Wayne, got your girl scout order.
    dfosterf (18h) : I believe Zero was being sarcastic
    dfosterf (18h) : Due to that rookie kicker Jake Bates that Zero said "he didn't want anyway". 58 yarder to tie the game, 52 yarder to win it. In fairness,
    Mucky Tundra (11-Nov) : Lions escape with a win
    Mucky Tundra (11-Nov) : and now Goff looking better
    Mucky Tundra (11-Nov) : Goff with ANOTHER INT
    Mucky Tundra (11-Nov) : and now Stroud throwing INTs
    Mucky Tundra (11-Nov) : Goff having an ATROCIOUS game
    wpr (11-Nov) : Happy birthday Corps. Ever faithful. Thanks dfosterf.
    Mucky Tundra (10-Nov) : stiff armed by Baker Mayfield for about 5-7 yards and still managed to get a pass off
    Mucky Tundra (10-Nov) : Nick Bosa
    wpr (8-Nov) : Jets are Packers (L)East
    Zero2Cool (8-Nov) : Jets released K Riley Patterson and signed K Anders Carlson to the practice squad.
    wpr (8-Nov) : Thanks guys
    Mucky Tundra (7-Nov) : Happy Birthday wpr!
    Zero2Cool (7-Nov) : Anders Carlson ... released by 49ers
    dfosterf (7-Nov) : Happy Birthday!😊😊😊
    wpr (7-Nov) : Thanks Kevin.
    Zero2Cool (7-Nov) : Happy Birthday, Wayne! 🎉🎂🥳
    beast (7-Nov) : Edge Rushers is the same... it's not the 4-3 vs 3-4 change, it's the Hafley's version of the 4-3... as all 32 teams are actually 4-2
    Zero2Cool (6-Nov) : OLB to DE and player requests trade. Yet folks say they are same.
    beast (5-Nov) : In other news, the Green Bay Packers have signed Zero2Cool to update their website 😋 jk
    beast (5-Nov) : Might just re-sign the kicker we got
    beast (5-Nov) : Are there any kickers worth drafting next year?
    Zero2Cool (5-Nov) : Preston Smith for Malik Willis
    Mucky Tundra (5-Nov) : Getting a 7th rounder from the Stillers
    Zero2Cool (5-Nov) : At least we get 7th round pick now!! HELLO NEW KICKER
    Mucky Tundra (5-Nov) : Steelers getting a premier lockdown corner!
    Zero2Cool (5-Nov) : Packers are trading edge rusher Preston Smith to the Pittsburgh Steelers, per sources.
    Mucky Tundra (5-Nov) : Preston Smith traded to the Steelers!!!!
    Zero2Cool (5-Nov) : CB Marshon Lattimore to Commanders
    Zero2Cool (5-Nov) : Bears are sending RB Khalil Herbert to the Bengals, per sources.
    Zero2Cool (5-Nov) : ZaDarius Smith continues his "north" tour.
    Zero2Cool (5-Nov) : Let the Chiefs trade a 5th for him
    Zero2Cool (5-Nov) : Nearing 30, large contract, nope.
    Martha Careful (5-Nov) : any interest in Marshon Lattimore?
    Zero2Cool (4-Nov) : What does NFL do if they're over cap?
    Mucky Tundra (4-Nov) : They've been able to constantly push it out through extensions, void years etc but they're in the hole by 72 million next year I believe
    hardrocker950 (4-Nov) : Seems the Saints are always in cap hell
    Mucky Tundra (4-Nov) : Saints HC job is not an envious one; gonna be in cap hell for 3 years
    Mucky Tundra (4-Nov) : Dennis Allen has now been fired twice mid-season with Derek Carr as his starting QB
    Zero2Cool (4-Nov) : Kuhn let go
    beast (4-Nov) : I wonder if the Packers would have any interest in Z. Smith, probably not
    Zero2Cool (4-Nov) : Shefter says Browns and Lions will figure out how to get a deal done for Za'Darius Smith..
    Zero2Cool (4-Nov) : Packers are more likely to have 1,000 yard rusher than 4,000 yard passer
    Zero2Cool (3-Nov) : It's raining hard.
    Zero2Cool (3-Nov) : Packers inactives vs. Lions: CB Jaire Alexander S Evan Williams C Josh Myers Non-injury inactives: WR Malik Heath OL Travis Glover DE Bren
    Please sign in to use Fan Shout
    2024 Packers Schedule
    Friday, Sep 6 @ 7:15 PM
    Eagles
    Sunday, Sep 15 @ 12:00 PM
    COLTS
    Sunday, Sep 22 @ 12:00 PM
    Titans
    Sunday, Sep 29 @ 12:00 PM
    VIKINGS
    Sunday, Oct 6 @ 3:25 PM
    Rams
    Sunday, Oct 13 @ 12:00 PM
    CARDINALS
    Sunday, Oct 20 @ 12:00 PM
    TEXANS
    Sunday, Oct 27 @ 12:00 PM
    Jaguars
    Sunday, Nov 3 @ 3:25 PM
    LIONS
    Sunday, Nov 17 @ 12:00 PM
    Bears
    Sunday, Nov 24 @ 3:25 PM
    49ERS
    Thursday, Nov 28 @ 7:20 PM
    DOLPHINS
    Thursday, Dec 5 @ 7:15 PM
    Lions
    Sunday, Dec 15 @ 7:20 PM
    Seahawks
    Monday, Dec 23 @ 7:15 PM
    SAINTS
    Sunday, Dec 29 @ 12:00 PM
    Vikings
    Saturday, Jan 4 @ 11:00 PM
    BEARS
    Recent Topics
    16h / Around The NFL / beast

    11-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

    11-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / bboystyle

    9-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / joepacker

    8-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / buckeyepackfan

    6-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

    6-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

    5-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

    5-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

    5-Nov / Featured Content / Zero2Cool

    5-Nov / GameDay Threads / Cheesey

    5-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Martha Careful

    5-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Martha Careful

    5-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Martha Careful

    4-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

    Headlines
    Copyright © 2006 - 2024 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.