15 years ago


So?

"Wade" wrote:



ok...i know this might be hard to swallow...but just give me the benefit of the doubt here and believe me when i say i've worked--as in "poured my blood, sweat and tears" into the rehab and detox world from 2004 until present. more than likely i've seen more, regarding this subject, than all of you combined.

now...that alone does not make me "right" about anything regarding this subject. what it does do, however, is give me much more first-hand experience and insight than your average person. if the "god" most of you seem to believe in truly existed...trust me...i'd have some major philanthropy points (i know this is hard to believe since you all seem to think i'm some sort of smug, solipsistic, misanthropist...but it's true) from the work i've done for people--much of which was helping people find the power within themselves and turn away from the harmful things in their lives...and this includes the 12 steps.

now when i say i have no desire to contiue a debate i've likely had more times than any of you have woken up in the morning...i really, truly mean it. but more importantly when i say "if you want my answers to the questions you're posing, simply watch those three videos (or the whole thing if you have showtime on demand or netflix or whatever) and you'll see all or nearly all of your questions and you'll receive what are, for the most part, exactly what my answers to those questions are now and have been over the years" i am being sincere. and hell, you might just get a laugh or two out of it. it IS Penn & Teller after all.

I agree with Twinkiegorilla.

bozz_2006 wrote:


IronMan
15 years ago

yes, but the point is...a disease is a disease. i have ADHD, a chemical imbalance or "disorder" which has me predisposed to using drugs like opiates (there are studies, trust me) but that's not a disease. being predisposed, being addicted, making bad life choices...this is not a disease. you can't cure yourself from a disease.

"TwinkieGorilla" wrote:


This pretty much sums it up. and yes, Zero, Wade, watch those videos and get back with us.
IronMan
15 years ago

I mention it again, how can aids be a disease but not alcoholism? Both are self inflicted by choices we make, right?

"Zero2Cool" wrote:



Apples: Getting AIDS as a result of using drugs/having unprotected sex.

Apples: Getting liver disease as a result of drinking too much alcohol.

Oranges: Not having the will power to stop drinking alcohol.
Zero2Cool
15 years ago

you can't cure yourself from a disease.


Exactly, that's why once you're an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. Glad we've come full circle on this subject. I bet $100 you don't realize the hypocrisy spoken.

I was down with saying 'sure its not a disease' then when I'm told Aids is a disease ... well kind of hard to make that argument there fellas. I don't really care if bill bob or tom thinks it's a disease or not. Or even if it is a disease. By the common dictionary usage of disease, alcoholism is a disease.

What's a disease to you? To me, I always thought it was something that you couldn't heal from, e.g. Aids.

Smoking causes lung cancers, does that mean smoking is a disease?
Drinking can cause liver cancer and liver disease, does that make drinking a disease?
Sharing needles can lead to Aids, does that mean sharing needles is a disease?

I mean, where do we draw the line here? And WHY is it so important to some what IS or is NOT a disease?

My mom lost her life to being an alcoholic, someone loses there mom to lung cancer ... does that make one better or worse than the other? Last I check, we both were without our mothers.

My mothers alcoholism lead to liver disease, her smoking lead to lung cancer. What ultimately took her life was cirrhosis of the liver, from alcohol.



If you don't think alcoholism is a disease, that's okay. I'm not personally offended or hurt by it. I keep posting because I'm trying to understand the other point of view here, but I'm seeing a lot of hypocritical statements. It's like trying to believe in the bible.
UserPostedImage
IronMan
15 years ago



I was down with saying 'sure its not a disease' then when I'm told Aids is a disease ... well kind of hard to make that argument there fellas. I don't really care if bill bob or tom thinks it's a disease or not. Or even if it is a disease. By the common dictionary usage of disease, alcoholism is a disease.

"Zero2Cool" wrote:


Drinking too much alcohol can cause liver disease.
Aids can be contracted by using drugs.

Those two things are the same.

Simply not having the ability to stop drinking is NOT a disease.
Zero2Cool
15 years ago

now when i say i have no desire to contiue a debate i've likely had more times than any of you have woken up in the morning...i really, truly mean it.

"TwinkieGorilla" wrote:



This is where you lose me and lose me fast. Who are you to pretend to know what I've been through or what I've endured? No one, which is exactly the same person I am to judge what you've been through. That is WHY I'm open minded about this because I understand there is NO CUT AND DRY answer to this. Some just don't want to see the other point of view because its different than their own. Which is one of the major problems I have with society as a whole. People think they know and fail to comprehend that there's a world larger than the little box we live in.

I'm wrong more than I'm right. We've all witnessed that. I push for common ground, and understanding of both or all sides. It often times proves that my original take on something was wrong.

I'm fine with that. I like everyone don't like being wrong, but I hate being unable to learn the truth far more.

I can see how some can say alcoholism is not a disease, I can also see how some can say it is a disease.




Mental Obsession
Remember what that was like? No matter what you did, that silly tune kept on playing. You could try to whistle or sing another song or turn on the radio and listen to another tune, but the one in your head just kept on playing. Think about it. There was something going on in your mind that you didn't put there and, no matter how hard you tried, couldn't get out!

That is an example of a simple mental obsession -- a thought process over which you have no control. Such is the nature of the disease of alcoholism. When the drinking "song" starts playing in the mind of an alcoholic, he is powerless. He didn't put the song there and the only way to get it to stop is to take another drink.

The problem is the alcoholic's mental obsession with alcohol is much more subtle than a song playing in his mind. In fact, he may not even know it's there. All he knows is he suddenly has an urge to take a drink -- a physical compulsion to drink.



I think that's accurate assessment.


I do not think it should be used as an excuse FOR drinking. I've heard some say 'i have a disease okay thats why i drink'. I think that's bullshit. I think you drink because you didn't have the self discipline to tell yourself to stop before it got out of control.

After alcoholism sets it footprint in your head, you can't just flip a switch and erase it. Again that's something those who haven't experienced it, can't possibly understand. It's not as simple as 'dont pick up that drink then'. If it was, do you really think there would be so many alcoholics in this world?
UserPostedImage
Zero2Cool
15 years ago

I was down with saying 'sure its not a disease' then when I'm told Aids is a disease ... well kind of hard to make that argument there fellas. I don't really care if bill bob or tom thinks it's a disease or not. Or even if it is a disease. By the common dictionary usage of disease, alcoholism is a disease.

"IronMan" wrote:


Drinking too much alcohol can cause liver disease.
Aids can be contracted by using drugs.

Those two things are the same.

Simply not having the ability to stop drinking is NOT a disease.

"Zero2Cool" wrote:



Everyone has the physical ability to not drink.

Does that mean they have the mental fortitude to not drink? No, because of what alcohol does to your brain. Just like nicotine, heroin, etc... it causes a chemical imbalance.

No one wakes up and says "Im going to be an alcoholic".

:shrug:

I fought the line you are speaking for years ... that's why I went into AA meetings, Alateen, researched it, etc ... I needed to know more about it. Because I couldn't understand ... its KILLING you ... just DON'T FUCKING PICK UP THE GOD DAMN BOTTLE!

Unfortunately, as I learned and experienced, it's just not that easy. 😞
UserPostedImage
15 years ago

This is where you lose me and lose me fast. Who are you to pretend to know what I've been through or what I've endured?

"Zero2Cool" wrote:



great. i like how you ignored the actual point of my post and latched onto a single sentence. my reason for saying that was that for years upon years i've had the debate and i am tired of it. you ask me questions and i say "watch these videos. they bring up your questions and more...whilst giving you the answers you are seeking from me and i really have nothing more to add to the discussion. and oh, by they way, you might just be a little more entertained by it than reading a few words some dude you don't know has typed into a little green box on a message board."

I agree with Twinkiegorilla.

bozz_2006 wrote:


Formo
15 years ago


No one wakes up and says "Im going to be an alcoholic".

"Zero2Cool" wrote:



It's a slow process. You are right.. No one wakes up saying "Hey, I'm gonna be -=insert any issue here=-!"

But what does happen is they continue to do the things that create an issue (in this case is drinking that eventually leads to alcoholism) and eventually end up with a big problem. Their daily choices eventually leads to the big problem.

And I disagree with the assessment that says 'once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic'. Hate to break it to ya, but people actually change. I know more than a handful of former alcoholics that haven't touched a drop in years. I myself was on the road to alcoholism. I quit before it got serious, but still.

Just because some people don't use any will power to quit drinking, doesn't mean they don't have the will power. It just means they don't want to quit more than they do.
UserPostedImage
Thanks to TheViking88 for the sig!!
4PackGirl
15 years ago
if you believe alcoholism is a disease, you are NEVER cured from it. that's what kev meant by 'once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic'. i saw it firsthand with my ex who went to rehab but did NOT do the 12 step thing. he maintained his sobriety for 12 f'in YEARS & then decided he could drink again...knowing full well what would happen.

my uncle was also an alcoholic & i watched him ruin his family one day at a time - a slow horrible death of my aunt's very being, & shoving his son aside at every turn. and now what's happened to my aunt? SHE'S an alcoholic too!! hard to imagine but she almost burned her house down because she was drunk off her ass.

you cannot TELL me that she really WANTED to become an alcoholic. you cannot TELL me that anyone WANTS to be an alcoholic. it's a slow, steady progressive disease that people succumb to for many different reasons. calling it a disease doesn't give alcoholics an excuse. i've never heard a drunk say 'well, i have a disease so it's not my fault'. have any of you? seriously?? not buyin it.
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