The 'disease' of alcoholism (I feel) is the result of choosing to drink to where you're dependent on it. Much like being infected with aids by choosing to share needles or have unprotected sex. Aids is a disease, right?



Koren didn't drink and drive because he's an alcoholic or because he has a 'disease'. He drove while being drunk because of poor decision making, which is ultimately what sparked his alcoholism.

There's so much more to it than one can understand if they are not living through it or witnessing it first hand. I started learning about it from age 11 and still am to this day.

I fully believe it's the person's choice to buy the booze, pour it into a glass, bring it their mouth and gulp it down. However, I understand how they FEEL they have no choice and that is one aspect of alcoholism being called a disease ... they are left without feeling they have a choice, that drinking is the ONLY option.

I mention it again, how can aids be a disease but not alcoholism? Both are self inflicted by choices we make, right?



It's not black and white, there is a gray area and if you've not experienced it first hand, you don't know what you're talking about. I mean that in a respectful tone, not insulting by any means. You won't hear me talking about stem cell research because I don't know anything about it. Alcoholism ... unfortunately I know more than I ever wanted to know and seen what it does to people.

I wanted it to be black and white - my god did I ever so badly want it to be black and white ... I wanted to flip that switch to make it stop.

I thought it was easy. I would say ... I grew up in bad neighborhoods, drinking, drugs, fights, gangs, my parents both heavy drinkers, both my grandpa's were heavy drinkers to their death, my step grandpa is recovering alcoholic, many in my family smoke cigs ...

I don't do drugs, I rarely drink, I didn't stay in the gangs, I never smoke ... I went to parties where I was pressured into it and backed off and didn't succumb to it. I was able to be strong enough mom why weren't you, why can't you be strong for your kids, for us, for YOURSELF?

I grew up with all of that surrounding me. I was made to think everyone was doing it, mom, dad, majority of my family members, lots of my friends. I bucked the trend why couldn't you mom?





IronMan, I see your point and respect it. You feel life is what you make it, don't like it, CHANGE it. I'm in the same mindset. However, I also understand not everyone is as strong mentality because of experiences in their life and how substances can change their priorities in their life. Which makes it hard to make the right decision. I could make it black and white and hate my mom with the thought alcohol was more important. That's simply not true. I could see it in her eyes, her voice, I know in her heart she loved us more than the bottle. She just wasn't strong enough to over come the temptation, the urge and those around her who enabled her 'disease'.





Edit, the sob story of 'i drink because my dad drank' is an excuse for weakness. I'm German and Irish and as I said before grew up with surrounding me every day. I was taken to bars, seen my dad, my mom drinking, grandpa, everyone. Drinking is in my blood. I choose not to succumb to it. I choose to be laughed at for living in Wisconsin, being a man in his 20's and not drinking. I choose that path, why? Because being alive and a father is more important than risking going down the same path my mother did.

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Definitions of disease ...

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And did not Dick, one of the most brilliant science fiction writers of all time, struggle with such errors of judgment all of his life?

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all his life? i don't think so, partner. from what i understand he cleaned up early enough in his life and proceeded to write "warning stories" like A Scanner Darkly.

also, personal perspective:

i was addicted to heroin and other opiates for 6 years. i did not have a disease, nor do i now. i didn't need a 12 step group to convince me i was helpless and diseased in order to get clean (concerning opiates), which i've been for 3 years--i just did it because it needed to be done if i wanted my life back. i've hosted detox sites for a few years...trust me, i've had this debate plenty.

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and because you did it, EVERYONE can do it, right? I know that feeling well. Unfortunately thinks are not that cut and dry as we each were raised differently and had different experiences in our lives to make us who we are now. Some people lack the strength to do what you did, I commend on your change in lifestyle, it's an inspiration story for those in similar situations.

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yes, but the point is...a disease is a disease. i have ADHD, a chemical imbalance or "disorder" which has me predisposed to using drugs like opiates (there are studies, trust me) but that's not a disease. being predisposed, being addicted, making bad life choices...this is not a disease. you can't cure yourself from a disease.

seriously. don't try to tell a guy who watched his mother battle cancer and lose--that drug or alcohol abuse is a disease. but really, as i said...i've spent the last decade of my life having this very debate. i'm kinda-sorta tired of it. here are two p. funny videos which pretty much sum up my p.o.v.

[youtube]8tPNgHrIkgo&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]5uwx2P5LJgk&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]7PjpOsE3xoY&feature=PlayList&p=735622555563E9FA&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=40[/youtube]

EDIT: whoops! 3 parts, not 2.

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But it's okay for you to tell a man who watched his mother drink herself to death that alcoholism is not a disease?

So, basically, what you're saying is whatever point of view you have is right and what I have is wrong? At least I'm being open minded about it.

If Aids is a disease, how is alcoholism not a disease? I'm not arguing that it IS a disease, I'm asking for understanding on the difference. By reading the definition of a disease, it sounds like alcoholism is a disease.

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um, yes? since it's not a disease.



being open-minded about something is not always a positive attribute. don't let's play that game. watch those videos and get back to me. it covers pretty much every single angle and question you seem to be bringing up, and my answers are the answers are those you'll see in them.

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ok. it's not a disease.

So?

It doesn't follow that 12step programs never work. It doesnt follow that everyone in a 12step program is a comedy sketch waiting to happen. It doesn't follow that you can "cure yourself" of alcoholism.

It does not change the fact that dealing with alcoholism, either from the perspective of the alcoholic/addict/whatever word you want to label the person, or from the perspective of the family member like Kevin, is not a simple deal.

What worked for you is great, whatever it is. But it doesn't work for everyone. It isn't a problem that everyone can solve just by "pulling themselves up by their bootstrap," by "being a man", or by doing anything.

Kevin's got a legitimate question: What is a disease? What isn't?

Or if you want to play the game, what makes "predisposition to X" translate into "not a disease." My cousin was predisposed to get diabetes, because her dad was a diabetic. Does that mean the diabetes she suffers from isn't a disease? Certain groups are more likely to get sickle cell anemia than others? Does that mean sickle cell anemia is not a disease? Certain people may be more predisposed than others to get certain kinds of cancers than others? Does that make their kinds of cancers less of a disease than other kinds of cancers?

Predisposition is a factor. It may be a factor an individual can "work around" or "avoid" through choices. It may not be. It may be a factor that the individual can "cure" on his own. It may not be.

I don't have an answer for you, Kevin, on the "what's a disease?" question. Other than saying how we answer "is it a disease?" doesn't have to have anything to do with "what should we do/have done/will do about an individual alcoholic like your mother.

But I know that's not what you're looking for. Sorry.

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Oh yes, and regarding Philip Dick.

He struggled with amphetamine addiction for 20 years before he cleaned up shortly after turning 40. And I don't remember if he went through two, three, or four of his five wives in that period.

So, you are correct, it wasn't all his life as to the drugs part (only the mental illness part, assuming it was an "illness" and not something else).

But it was also a major struggle. And, IMO, it would have been a major struggle whether or not someone calls any of his problems a "disease" or not.

IMO Philip Dick is a classic example of why it is harmful to generalize about these kinds of issues. In many ways, if you look at him, he was a completely fucked up dude for much if not most of his life. On the other hand, he was creatively a genius.

But it isn't just the "geniuses" that have complicated situations, that have to deal with problems. Its not a function of genius any more than its the function of any other single cause. Every drug addict isn't like Philip Dick. Every drug addict is different from Philip Dick. Every alcoholic isn't like Kevin's mom. Every morbidly obese person isn't like me.

These are tough social problems because they are tough, and individual, personal problems.

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