From what I've read, I'm not sure why LTF said what he did. it gives the impression things are going really bad, and I haven't seen that.

Either comment on my question about Noah's Ark (or the subsequent statements pertaining to it from others) or don't comment. Please. thank you. Please.

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I am not under impression it is going bad? I think your over analyzing it some?

I see a debate going no where cuz of people that have solid beliefs on both sides.....

That is why I said what I did..no matter how hard you try your not going to change someones opinion..

I will not speak for Zero, but I will comment on my perspective.

A lot of the content of this thread would be taboo on most forums because of the subject matter. Everyone is well-advised to understand that it is a thread that simply has to be extremely closely monitored in order to prevent it turning into a source for a personal war, large or small. The subject has as many opinions as there are members, and it is obviously extremely personal by it's very nature. Obviously some are very pleased to have this outlet to discuss things, and it would be awesome if we were able to give them that continued opportunity.

My personal suggestion is that if anyone finds this objectionable in any way, manner, shape or form...rest assured that at least this moderator is watching what is said, and the best thing to do is simply move to a subject that is more in keeping with what you might want to read on this website.

Nothing more, nothing less.

And again...not directing this at anyone. This is for "all" consumers.

I fully understand that, I think, but then why interject your comment that doesn't pertain to the subject at all? I get your intentions are good, but if its dog chasing tail, why do you feel you need to state the obvious in which surely its known by those discussing?

I'll admit, I've backed off reading some of it because there's too many words, not enough pictures for me to understand. There's been no reports on this thread, so I'm guessing all is well.

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I for one won't name call because someone disagrees with me. I KNOW that many people get indoctrinated into religions, OR a disbelief in God.

Questions were asked, beliefs were stated, and reasons for and against said beliefs.
Honestly, from MY point of view, i very rarely get to have this kind of disscussion where i don't get attacked and name called. I APPRECIATE the level of respect that has been shown. I try to do the same in return.

And i REALLY appreciate that Zero allows us to discuss such things. I hope that some of what i said made sense and helped him, and others that may have the same questions, but don't like to ask.

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amen, cheesey. this discussion has been very respectful on all sides. it's a sensitive subject for some but a healthy discussion is, for me at least, a great way to grow & learn.

Yup! Like i said, alot of people feel "dumb" to ask questions, so they don't ask. And the only way you learn is to ask, and you are never too old to learn!
I was raised in public schools, and was taught evolution. On the surface, it SOUNDED right. It was only when i got old enough to actually study what was used as "proof" that i came to understand that all they really had was theories. And theories are fine, as long as they are taught as ONLY being that. When you use things to prove your theory that are not true, then thats wrong.
The coelacanth fish was a BIG one for me. I remember seeing pictures of the fossils when i was a kid, and told that PROVED evolution, as the lobed fins were "evolving" into arms and legs. Then i found out, purely by chance, that they had caught a living one 40 years earlier, and they STILL were telling kids that the lobed fins were evolving. Here their "proof" was disproven, yet they were still teaching it as proof.
Also, in the Milwaukee County Museum. they have an "evolution display". They show "normal" chickens, then have one that has REALLY long tail feathers. I mean tail feathers several feet long. They say that proves the chicken is evolving. Yet, it's still 100% CHICKEN. It hasn't grown gills, or hands, it's just got longer feathers! Feathers are in it's DNA!
They also show a display where white moths flourished, and most of the trees in the area are white birch trees. Then a factory moved in, and blew soot out, which covered the white trees with black soot. In a short time, guess what happened? There were very few white moths, and lots of black ones! POOF! The moths evolved! (Thats what the display says, this PROVED evolution) Now, lets see. White colored moths, and black colored moths. Where is the evolution? Both are what? 100% MOTH. Here is the explanation of what REALLY is the case. White and black moths were born in equal numbers all along! Both colors were in their DNA! If you put a BLACK moth onto a white tree, and it's next to a white moth, which one stands out more? Which one is more likely to be seen by birds and other predators? Now change the color of the trees to black.....NOW which color moth stands out?
Truth is.....GOD made them have different color strains to guarentee the moths would survive if their surroundings changed. Thats a pretty smart creator, if you ask me!
One day when i was at the Museum, and a school group was there, their teacher was telling them how these 2 displays proved evolution. I piped in and said just what i said here. The teacher was NOT happy. I asked her "Don't my statements make sense? Am i WRONG?" She had NO response.....she took the kids and walked away. The kids looked at me like SCALES had been removed from their eyes.

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[youtube]JgyTVT3dqGY[/youtube]

Alan, this video is pretty much why I believe evolution. Take a look at it. It's a very well done video that basically breaks down how evolution can be seen on the same wavelength when looking at physical evidence like fossils and genetic evidence. All fields of science come to the same conclusion.

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Very possibly too absolute.

Astrobiologists, xenobiologists, Carl Sagan, Drake--Of Drake equation fame, might take umbrage to an absolute use of of the evolutionary paradigm...or for that matter, much of the scientific paradigms used in this whole darn subject.

I'm not saying I agree in any way, just throwin' it out there for further "exploration" ...so to speak.

"All scientists"....hmmmm


Don't think so?



The martians have already landed and we just don't know it? 


Not getting into it with anyone...but the math guys tell me that the odds are pretty darn good that most scientists are too busy looking in the wrong place for some very big questions. Go see Drake equation.

I'm still messin' with the whole space/time continuum thing, so I'm not really arguing here, just throwin' a curve. :thumbleft:


Noah's ark on a galactic scale--fun for the whole family


The Drake equation:

LINK 


My ultimate point in bringing up some of this stuff?

If my man Cheesey wants a giant water canopy, he can have a giant water canopy in my book. Call it the quasi- KISS principle or something, or perhaps even an Occam's razor  to sound a little bit like I have any clue what I'm talkin' about.


He said it better than I. We all can believe that which we so choose. LTF said it also, and I think I unintentionally "jumped" him a bit... It was unintentional. Did Noah load all the critters on a boat and go cruisin' for an extended period? I don't know. I don't know if there is life after death,
either. I do know that man has had some belief systems in place long before the current model of monotheism, and while I have heard it argued that "more wars were fought because of religion" or other such drivel...drivel because wars are almost invariably fought because some usually evil people convince people that have less ---that the people that have more have what they should have...and usually use some religious dogma in order to achieve those objectives is used.

I also know that many with a "scientific bent" can also find themselves philosophically comfortable with the concept of a higher power. I don't know if it is "most" along those lines, but I'm pretty safe in saying "many".

The myriad of belief systems all seem to have one thing in common. They may or may not lead to eternal life, but by God, if they help folk get through this one to the extent that they seem to---well, maybe even some of the wars are worth that, much less holding in abeyance attempts to discredit , debunk or explain away those beliefs. Just my .04. You can keep the change. :thumbleft:

I watched it......man....it just shows what i said all along. You can twist ANYTHING to fit your preconceived ideas. If you want it to "prove" evolution, you will point at everything that supposedly does so, and forget anything that doesn't.
The video say when showing "arms" of different creatures "They all look similar, but are very different." Yup.....I agree with that. They have the same basic design. Yup....agree with that too. All things have similar DNA. Yup, agree with that too! So the ONLY answer we can come to is everything came from a rock "millions of years ago". Huh???
LIke i have said, 2 people can look at the same thing, and come up to 2 different conclusions. Because everything is made up of the same stuff, and have similar design, we all have a common ancestor. Uh......how about WE ALL HAVE A COMMON DESIGNER!!!
God used the same materials to create everything, thus we have similarities.
The TREE thing they used at the beginning. Tree rings ARE useful to date trees. That is something we can PROVE. And if you have written history that says "so and so was born such and such date" that can be proof. But "carbon dating?" Thats where it becomes a crap shoot. Carbon dating has been PROVEN inaccurate. They have "carbon dated" living mollusks, and found them to be "millions of years old!"
So using tree rings and written history is SCIENCE that can be proven. Once you go away from the written history, you can make up anything you want, no matter how far fetched it is, and who can prove you are wrong?
Oh....and what i REALLY loved in the video was the use of "lobed finned fish" as the ancestor to reptiles. That the "lobed fins" were PROOF of a fish "evolving" into a walking creature! I laughed out loud when i heard that! Did you not read my posting on the "lobed finned" coelicanth?
I'll tell you what.....if i was trying to prove something, i myself wouldn't post a video that was already dissproved by what the other person already posted! But thats just me i guess.
And these "scientists" use the fossil record to date the rocks around them, and the rocks around the fossils to date the fossils. "Circular reasoning" i believe it's called.
Lets see.....a bicycle has tires....a motorcycle has tires......cars have tires.....18 wheelers have tires. So they MUST have "evolved" from a unicycle, right?
How about....they have a common DESIGNER, man!

And believe me, there are MANY scientists that do NOT believe in evolution.

Using creatures in the "fossil record" that are extinct to make up an evolution tree is science fiction, period. Just because something LOOKS similar does not prove they are related, only that they have the same desiger. Our DNA is colse to the DNA of MANY creatures and plants. Yet if you changed even ONE part of DNA, it wouldn't work, and you would die.

We were all designed by God. That explains ALL the similarities.

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