Talent question· Page 7

dd80forever
Registered

16 years ago

So how do you rate talent if they don't play? So it goes by peoples opinions like im still trying to see this so called great talent in Nelson and Blackmon. Blackmon is an average punt returner and thats it, its all hes ever been. Nelson is an average at best wr from what he showed on the field like i have said hes a Don Beebe type receiver in my eyes. But i guess you guys will say im full of shit but oh well im used to it. Also i see your point on some things i mean hell as long as our 3rd string TE was better last year than 05 that makes this a better team who cares about the starters and the guys that actually played.

"warhawk" wrote:

Well to be fair our 3rd string TE had as many TD as Franks did in 05. Try to not get so butthurt just because some people don't agree with you. Sometimes you seem like you get offended if others like a player that you don't.

Jordy is a smart, reliable receiver with good hands. I guess youll have to excuse some people for being happy with having a guy like that on the team. Maybe we should trade for Boldin and draft Crabtree then we can have Jennings, Driver, Boldin, and Crabtree on the team... oh wait that's dumb. Jones and Nelson are perfect at the #3 and 4.

"dd80forever" wrote:

The problem is every guy GB brings in has been so-called "full of potential". I remember going rounds about Ingle Martin! Colledge was going to be a stud O-Lineman, on and on. Wait til draft day. Every guy picked will be "full of potential".

It's been a broken record for 4 years now. Potential. potential, potential yet we finish the year 6-10. When is all the potential going to become talent?

Contrary to popular belief, I'm a die hard Packers fan but I can't get overly excited about some undrafted FA with "potential" or Justin "injury bug" Harrell because he has potential. All NFL teams have players full of potential. If you think Jordy is going to emerge into a pro-bowl WR go ahead but don't take offense when I see him as an average WR.

"Stevetarded" wrote:

For a die-hard fan I find it curious that you speak about four years of a broken record when in that period these guys with "potential" did, in fact set a record for the most wins in a year and half period.

We lost a a franchise record of games in the very last minutes after going on one of the best winning runs in franchise history. That's not opinion or hypothetical. It's a fact regardless of whether you want to recognize it or not.

I also don't find from these facts that the sky is falling nor can I see where there is any truth in opinions on players ability now vs. a year previous as if they have all just lost the ability to perform at their recent levels.

We got to fix the pass rush. Geez. What the heck you think they brought Capers in here for?

"dhazer" wrote:

Since you are tossin out "facts" you ignored the one that matters. The "Fact "is they were 6-10.

Ted tried to address the D-Line before this. His solution: Draft Justin Harrell who was a walking injury and let Williams walk.

This team needs more than a pass rush. What about the O-Line that Ted Thompson hasn't been able rebuild in 4 years?

Yeah, I know he's fixing the D-Line now, hopefully that goes better than the Bang-Up job he did with the boys up front or the PATHETIC ATTEMPT he made with the D-Line by drafting that waste Harrell.

By the way, the team that made the NFC Championship game isn't the exact one on the field now. You seem to be missing a certain player.

blank

warhawk
Senior Member

16 years ago

#62

So how do you rate talent if they don't play? So it goes by peoples opinions like im still trying to see this so called great talent in Nelson and Blackmon. Blackmon is an average punt returner and thats it, its all hes ever been. Nelson is an average at best wr from what he showed on the field like i have said hes a Don Beebe type receiver in my eyes. But i guess you guys will say im full of shit but oh well im used to it. Also i see your point on some things i mean hell as long as our 3rd string TE was better last year than 05 that makes this a better team who cares about the starters and the guys that actually played.

"dd80forever" wrote:

Well to be fair our 3rd string TE had as many TD as Franks did in 05. Try to not get so butthurt just because some people don't agree with you. Sometimes you seem like you get offended if others like a player that you don't.

Jordy is a smart, reliable receiver with good hands. I guess youll have to excuse some people for being happy with having a guy like that on the team. Maybe we should trade for Boldin and draft Crabtree then we can have Jennings, Driver, Boldin, and Crabtree on the team... oh wait that's dumb. Jones and Nelson are perfect at the #3 and 4.

"warhawk" wrote:

The problem is every guy GB brings in has been so-called "full of potential". I remember going rounds about Ingle Martin! Colledge was going to be a stud O-Lineman, on and on. Wait til draft day. Every guy picked will be "full of potential".

It's been a broken record for 4 years now. Potential. potential, potential yet we finish the year 6-10. When is all the potential going to become talent?

Contrary to popular belief, I'm a die hard Packers fan but I can't get overly excited about some undrafted FA with "potential" or Justin "injury bug" Harrell because he has potential. All NFL teams have players full of potential. If you think Jordy is going to emerge into a pro-bowl WR go ahead but don't take offense when I see him as an average WR.

"dd80forever" wrote:

For a die-hard fan I find it curious that you speak about four years of a broken record when in that period these guys with "potential" did, in fact set a record for the most wins in a year and half period.

We lost a a franchise record of games in the very last minutes after going on one of the best winning runs in franchise history. That's not opinion or hypothetical. It's a fact regardless of whether you want to recognize it or not.

I also don't find from these facts that the sky is falling nor can I see where there is any truth in opinions on players ability now vs. a year previous as if they have all just lost the ability to perform at their recent levels.

We got to fix the pass rush. Geez. What the heck you think they brought Capers in here for?

"Stevetarded" wrote:

Since you are tossin out "facts" you ignored the one that matters. The "Fact "is they were 6-10.

Ted tried to address the D-Line before this. His solution: Draft Justin Harrell who was a walking injury and let Williams walk.

This team needs more than a pass rush. What about the O-Line that Ted Thompson hasn't been able rebuild in 4 years?

Yeah, I know he's fixing the D-Line now, hopefully that goes better than the Bang-Up job he did with the boys up front or the PATHETIC ATTEMPT he made with the D-Line by drafting that waste Harrell.

By the way, the team that made the NFC Championship game isn't the exact one on the field now. You seem to be missing a certain player.

"dhazer" wrote:

I find it ironic you tell me I ignore the fact we were 6-10 when you refuse to acknowledge 13-3. I didn't ignore it. I said plainly that we lost a lot of games late that we could have won. Just because I don't agree that means now we suck doesn't mean I ignore what happened.

The offense had basically the same production over the past two years. A 1000 yard rusher and about 4000 yard passer. It's the same offensive line both years. Just because YOU say they suck means nothing. It means nothing because in your universe nearly all the personnel currently sucks based on everything you post.

It means nothing because you will look past everything good to drive your point home that Ted Thompson sucks. Your total lack of balance and unbias gives you an equal amount of credibility in everything you debate. None.

You come across to me like a woman scorned. Hateful, relentless, nonreconcilable, and ulitmately tiresome and dreadful to talk to.

"The train is leaving the station."

Nonstopdrivel
Preferred Member

16 years ago

#63

It means nothing because you will look past everything good to drive your point home that Ted Thompson sucks. Your total lack of balance and unbias gives you an equal amount of credibility in everything you debate. None.

You come across to me like a woman scorned. Hateful, relentless, nonreconcilable, and ulitmately tiresome and dreadful to talk to.

"warhawk" wrote:

Wow. Just wow. +1 for this contribution, whether I agree with it or not.

dd80forever
Registered

16 years ago

#64

So how do you rate talent if they don't play? So it goes by peoples opinions like im still trying to see this so called great talent in Nelson and Blackmon. Blackmon is an average punt returner and thats it, its all hes ever been. Nelson is an average at best wr from what he showed on the field like i have said hes a Don Beebe type receiver in my eyes. But i guess you guys will say im full of shit but oh well im used to it. Also i see your point on some things i mean hell as long as our 3rd string TE was better last year than 05 that makes this a better team who cares about the starters and the guys that actually played.

"warhawk" wrote:

Well to be fair our 3rd string TE had as many TD as Franks did in 05. Try to not get so butthurt just because some people don't agree with you. Sometimes you seem like you get offended if others like a player that you don't.

Jordy is a smart, reliable receiver with good hands. I guess youll have to excuse some people for being happy with having a guy like that on the team. Maybe we should trade for Boldin and draft Crabtree then we can have Jennings, Driver, Boldin, and Crabtree on the team... oh wait that's dumb. Jones and Nelson are perfect at the #3 and 4.

"dd80forever" wrote:

The problem is every guy GB brings in has been so-called "full of potential". I remember going rounds about Ingle Martin! Colledge was going to be a stud O-Lineman, on and on. Wait til draft day. Every guy picked will be "full of potential".

It's been a broken record for 4 years now. Potential. potential, potential yet we finish the year 6-10. When is all the potential going to become talent?

Contrary to popular belief, I'm a die hard Packers fan but I can't get overly excited about some undrafted FA with "potential" or Justin "injury bug" Harrell because he has potential. All NFL teams have players full of potential. If you think Jordy is going to emerge into a pro-bowl WR go ahead but don't take offense when I see him as an average WR.

"warhawk" wrote:

For a die-hard fan I find it curious that you speak about four years of a broken record when in that period these guys with "potential" did, in fact set a record for the most wins in a year and half period.

We lost a a franchise record of games in the very last minutes after going on one of the best winning runs in franchise history. That's not opinion or hypothetical. It's a fact regardless of whether you want to recognize it or not.

I also don't find from these facts that the sky is falling nor can I see where there is any truth in opinions on players ability now vs. a year previous as if they have all just lost the ability to perform at their recent levels.

We got to fix the pass rush. Geez. What the heck you think they brought Capers in here for?

"dd80forever" wrote:

Since you are tossin out "facts" you ignored the one that matters. The "Fact "is they were 6-10.

Ted tried to address the D-Line before this. His solution: Draft Justin Harrell who was a walking injury and let Williams walk.

This team needs more than a pass rush. What about the O-Line that Ted Thompson hasn't been able rebuild in 4 years?

Yeah, I know he's fixing the D-Line now, hopefully that goes better than the Bang-Up job he did with the boys up front or the PATHETIC ATTEMPT he made with the D-Line by drafting that waste Harrell.

By the way, the team that made the NFC Championship game isn't the exact one on the field now. You seem to be missing a certain player.

"Stevetarded" wrote:

I find it ironic you tell me I ignore the fact we were 6-10 when you refuse to acknowledge 13-3. I didn't ignore it. I said plainly that we lost a lot of games late that we could have won. Just because I don't agree that means now we suck doesn't mean I ignore what happened.

The offense had basically the same production over the past two years. A 1000 yard rusher and about 4000 yard passer. It's the same offensive line both years. Just because YOU say they suck means nothing. It means nothing because in your universe nearly all the personnel currently sucks based on everything you post.

It means nothing because you will look past everything good to drive your point home that Ted Thompson sucks. Your total lack of balance and unbias gives you an equal amount of credibility in everything you debate. None.

You come across to me like a woman scorned. Hateful, relentless, nonreconcilable, and ulitmately tiresome and dreadful to talk to.

"dhazer" wrote:

Yet you respond everytime. Doesn't that make you a whipping boy of sorts?

Whatever the case, you are welcome to your optimism. I'm not trying to push my opinions on you, yet offer a dfferent viewpoint that seems to infuriate you. The truth is you've been on the Ted Thompson bandwagon from the start, I get it. I remember debating things with you in 2005 on the old Packerforum. According to you we were going to be stocked up with talent by this time and be legitimate contenders. That hasn't exactly panned out. "Next Year" year after year gets old.

I wish GB would win just like you, I wish I was wrong about this team. If that happened I run around doing cartwheels stating "I was wrong". I don't ignore the 13-3 season. It was a good run. Unfortunately this team has seemed to regress from that campaign. Try not ignoring that fact or reverting to the "bad breaks" line.

We had penalties, lapses of intensity, and lapses of concentration. Thats going to happen when you field the youngest team in the league 3 years in a row. That falls on Ted Thompson.

In the end if you don't like my post, ignore them because I don't take anything you say as not tainted by your neverending defending of TT, and I'm sure you don't take anything I say as not tainted by my hatred of him.

Time will tell if Ted is a good GM. The clock is ticking.

blank

porky88
Veteran Member

16 years ago

#65

If I had to choose overall, and were to include injuries, I'd go with 08. If you took away the injuries of 05' and the injuries of 08' and gave me a choice I'd go with 05'.

"dd80forever" wrote:

"longtimefan" wrote:

:thumbleft: TY!!

Now how can you take away injuries? LOL...

I dont see how you can..

Who decides if those players would have performed at what was expected, or better than expected or worse?

You cant do that since its all objective..

Have to use what we know which is

4-12 to 6-10

"dd80forever" wrote:

Dude, you asked me to show you where I said something about injuries.

Then you change the subject. Way to man-up and admit your mistake!

Anyways my point is o course this team is better then the team that TOOK THE FIELD the better half of 2005. Most of them were 5th string guys.

However, give me a choice between the opening day roster of 2005 and 2008, without the injuries, I take 05 HANDS DOWN.

Those guys that got hurt led us to the NFC North championship the previous year. Favre to Walker was at it's high point.

I'm not sure where you were going with this. It's already been shown that the 2005 team gave up less points on defense. AS far as offense I again state Favre, Walker, Donald Driver, Hando, Green, Tauscher/Clifton then, Franks trumps A-Rod, GJ, Donald Driver, Grant, Kuhn, Tauscher/Clifton now, and Lee easily.

DH is right, yet you guys write him off as hating, as usual, and fail to see the logic.

I remember several posters before the 05 season talking about how much "potential" we had back then. Underwood was going to be great, etc. So you are comparing known failed to potential to unkniown potential. Of course the unknown is going to win. You know those guys you were hyped about, admittedly or not, were bums. It could be the case these guys you are now hyped about could be bums as well.

"dd80forever" wrote:

Take out the quarterbacks for a moment. Favre and Rodgers are eliminated for just a moment and you can't honestly believe that the rosters compare. Well you can, but it's not even close and most scouts would say that as well more than likely.

The receivers aren't close. Javon Walker is a joke. He was overrated here and I for one am glad Green Bay made that deal to get rid of him. I'd take Greg Jennings over Walker any day with Driver as a push. Favre made Walker.

I'd also take the Packers line from last year. Will Whititaker as the starting guard in 05.... You kidding me? That line was awful. Matt O'Dwyer and Adrian Klemm were jokes. The rest is the same.

The running game is a wash. Ahman Green was near the end of his career and near the end of his career he was know better than the current version of Ryan Grant. I like Ahman Green, but he was not the same player after he had his big year in 04.

Defensively isn't tricky either. The arguement that the 05 defense is better can be made if you never watched any games. Teams would get up on the Pack and just run out the clock in 05 whereas last year they actually had to score some points to keep pace with a top five offense at least statistically.

The secondary hands down is a win for the 08 squad.

The defensive line is basically a wash with both units being ridiculously bad.

All in all the only reason why anyone would take the 05 roster is Brett Favre. I get that and I understand that, but making the arguement for the talent top to bottom being better than last years is ridiculous.

LT makes a great point saying that they went from 4 to 13 wins in two years so why can't they go from 6 to 13 in another two years considering the talent. That's a good point, but that doesn't mean it'll be right.

Afterall, the NFL seldom works in patterns.

http://www.row12.com/

dd80forever
Registered

16 years ago

#66

If I had to choose overall, and were to include injuries, I'd go with 08. If you took away the injuries of 05' and the injuries of 08' and gave me a choice I'd go with 05'.

"porky88" wrote:

"dd80forever" wrote:

:thumbleft: TY!!

Now how can you take away injuries? LOL...

I dont see how you can..

Who decides if those players would have performed at what was expected, or better than expected or worse?

You cant do that since its all objective..

Have to use what we know which is

4-12 to 6-10

"longtimefan" wrote:

Dude, you asked me to show you where I said something about injuries.

Then you change the subject. Way to man-up and admit your mistake!

Anyways my point is o course this team is better then the team that TOOK THE FIELD the better half of 2005. Most of them were 5th string guys.

However, give me a choice between the opening day roster of 2005 and 2008, without the injuries, I take 05 HANDS DOWN.

Those guys that got hurt led us to the NFC North championship the previous year. Favre to Walker was at it's high point.

I'm not sure where you were going with this. It's already been shown that the 2005 team gave up less points on defense. AS far as offense I again state Favre, Walker, Donald Driver, Hando, Green, Tauscher/Clifton then, Franks trumps A-Rod, GJ, Donald Driver, Grant, Kuhn, Tauscher/Clifton now, and Lee easily.

DH is right, yet you guys write him off as hating, as usual, and fail to see the logic.

I remember several posters before the 05 season talking about how much "potential" we had back then. Underwood was going to be great, etc. So you are comparing known failed to potential to unkniown potential. Of course the unknown is going to win. You know those guys you were hyped about, admittedly or not, were bums. It could be the case these guys you are now hyped about could be bums as well.

"dd80forever" wrote:

Take out the quarterbacks for a moment. Favre and Rodgers are eliminated for just a moment and you can't honestly believe that the rosters compare. Well you can, but it's not even close and most scouts would say that as well more than likely.

The receivers aren't close. Javon Walker is a joke. He was overrated here and I for one am glad Green Bay made that deal to get rid of him. I'd take Greg Jennings over Walker any day with Driver as a push. Favre made Walker.

I'd also take the Packers line from last year. Will Whititaker as the starting guard in 05.... You kidding me? That line was awful. Matt O'Dwyer and Adrian Klemm were jokes. The rest is the same.

The running game is a wash. Ahman Green was near the end of his career and near the end of his career he was know better than the current version of Ryan Grant. I like Ahman Green, but he was not the same player after he had his big year in 04.

Defensively isn't tricky either. The arguement that the 05 defense is better can be made if you never watched any games. Teams would get up on the Pack and just run out the clock in 05 whereas last year they actually had to score some points to keep pace with a top five offense at least statistically.

The secondary hands down is a win for the 08 squad.

The defensive line is basically a wash with both units being ridiculously bad.

All in all the only reason why anyone would take the 05 roster is Brett Favre. I get that and I understand that, but making the arguement for the talent top to bottom being better than last years is ridiculous.

LT makes a great point saying that they went from 4 to 13 wins in two years so why can't they go from 6 to 13 in another two years considering the talent. That's a good point, but that doesn't mean it'll be right.

Afterall, the NFL seldom works in patterns.

"dd80forever" wrote:

Sorry Porky I disagree. First off when comparing you can't "take the QB's out of it". That makes no sense.

Secondly Green and Henderson trump Grant and Kuhn. Please tell me you are kidding.

As far as WR's go Javon Walker never regained his form after that injury in 05 but the year before burst on the scene with 12 TD's. Of course now we know the story with that but GJ could just as easily suffer the same fate. Walker pre-injury/DD vs. Jennings and DD - Wash

I'd take Franks over Lee as well. Clifton and Tauscher then beat Clifton/Tauscher now. The rest of the guys on both Lines cancel each other out. Advantage younger Clifton and Tauscher.

Offensive wise - 05' units get 4 nods. WR, QB, TE, and O-Line - 08' gets nothing.

Defensively, no doubt the CB's, Safetys of 08 take the cake. LB's are about even. Diggs was better than Poppinga and Hawk wins on the other side.

Now, the D-Line I take offense to. Grady Jackson? KGB? C'mon now. 05' D-Line all day

Defensive summary - 08 +2 for CB's and Safety's - 05 +1 for D-Line.

Special Teams = Wash.

Total - 05' 5 - 08' 2

blank

dd80forever
Registered

16 years ago

#67

LT makes a great point saying that they went from 4 to 13 wins in two years so why can't they go from 6 to 13 in another two years considering the talent. That's a good point, but that doesn't mean it'll be right.

Afterall, the NFL seldom works in patterns.

"porky88" wrote:

The problem with this theory is
A. we went 4-12 because of massive injuries. It would be like if we took a season off and went 0-16 and then decided to play the next year and won 8 games. Did we really "IMPROVE" or did the atarters just stay healthy the next year.

B. With that theory we could also fall of 7 games again. Meaning we could go -1-16???? LOL

blank

longtimefan
Registered Topic Starter

16 years ago

#68

LOL!!!

You dont want porky to leave out the q/b ( which I agree with you on, need to use them ) but you want to use a WR that was on i/r for 15.5 games???

We have NO IDEA how he would have performed..Since he was not on the roster..

and how in the heck does Moll, Colledge, and Spitz=Klemm, Dwyer and Whittaker?

TheEngineer
Registered

16 years ago

#69

Can someone explain for what reason we're considering pre-injury teams? The 05 team was injured like crazy, and ended up 4-12. You cannot compare the opening day 05 roster because they never played to a record of 4-12. Likewise for the 08 team which also suffered a few injuries and trades.

Is the question which team had the better opening day roster or which team had more talent over the course of the season?

My thoughts are, despite whatever personal abilities, as a whole, I recall the 05 team over the course of the season as being godawful/abysmal and the 08 team as being frustrating with a potential to lose the game at any minute. But I felt less worried about losing with the 08 team.

blank

longtimefan
Registered Topic Starter

16 years ago

#70

LT makes a great point saying that they went from 4 to 13 wins in two years so why can't they go from 6 to 13 in another two years considering the talent. That's a good point, but that doesn't mean it'll be right.

Afterall, the NFL seldom works in patterns.

"dd80forever" wrote:

The problem with this theory is
A. we went 4-12 because of massive injuries. It would be like if we took a season off and went 0-16 and then decided to play the next year and won 8 games. Did we really "IMPROVE" or did the atarters just stay healthy the next year.

B. With that theory we could also fall of 7 games again. Meaning we could go -1-16???? LOL

"porky88" wrote:

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

We had how many injuries in 08? And yet we (we =people that really believe in this team ) are told we are wrong..

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