Wisconsin Scott Walker??

Wade
100% (Exalted)
Veteran Member

14 years ago

Top 20 wealthiest people in America.. 2009.. don't see an actor on the list.

1. William Gates III ($50.0 bil, 53yo, Medina, WA Microsoft) [Cuba]
2. Warren Buffett ($40.0 bil, 79yo, Omaha, NE Berkshire Hathaway) [Lebanon, Latvia]
3. Lawrence Ellison ($27.0 bil, 65yo, Redwood City, CA Oracle) [Paraguay]
4. Christy Walton & family ($21.5 bil, 54yo, Jackson, WY Wal-Mart inheritance) [Trinidad]
5. Jim Walton ($19.6 bil, 61yo, Bentonville, Aaron Rodgers Wal-Mart) [Georgia]
6. Alice Walton ($19.3 bil, 60 Fort Worth, TX Wal-Mart) [Georgia]
7. S Robson Walton ($19 bil, 65yo, Bentonville, Aaron Rodgers Wal-Mart) [Dem. Rep. Congo]
8. Michael Bloomberg ($17.5 bil, 67yo, New York, NY Bloomberg) [Mozambique]
9. Charles Koch ($16.0 bil, 73yo, Wichita, KS manufacturing, energy) [Chad]
10. David Koch ($16.0 bil, 69yo, New York, NY manufacturing, energy) [Chad]
11. Sergey Brin ($15.3 bil, 36yo Palo Alto, CA Google) [Haiti]
12. Larry Page ($15.3 bil, 36yo San Francisco, CA Google) [Haiti]
13. Michael Dell ($14.5 bil, 44yo, Austin, TX Dell) [Mauritius]
14. Steven Ballmer ($13.3 bil, 53yo, Seattle, WA Microsoft) [Jamaica]
15. George Soros ($13.0 bil, 79yo, Westchester, IL hedge funds)* [Jamaica]
16. Donald Bren ($12.0 bil, 77yo, Newport Beach, CA real estate) [Benin]
17. Paul Allen ($11.5 bil, 56yo, Seattle, WA Microsoft, investments) [Iceland, Tajikistan]
18. Abigail Johnson ($11.5 bil, 47yo, Boston, MA Fidelity) [Iceland, Tajikistan]
19. Forest Edward Mars ($11.0 bil, 78yo, McLean, IL candy, pet food)* [Iceland, Tajikistan]
20. Jacqueline Mars ($11.0 bil, 70yo, Bedminster, NJ candy, pet food)* [Iceland, Tajikistan]

"Pack93z" wrote:

By my count, this adds up to wealth of $373.4 billion. (though I did this at 6 a.m. without benefit of a calculator, so who knows how accurate my addition is! 🙂 )

But lets just say its $400 billion.
This is wealth, not income. (Wealth being defined as what generates income). Let's assume these people have way about normal abilities to generate income, say, at a rate of 25 percent return per year, and can do it for the rest of their lives. That's a cool $100 billion.

Suppose we tax them at 100 percent of their income and allow them, because they are so stinking rich, zero deductions.

That's a cool $100 billion in tax revenue.

Problem is, by itself, our federal government is going to add a full TRILLION dollars or so of deficit spending over the same time period.

So we've taken all the income of ten of the richest people in human history, and we've increased our government debt by nine times as much as we took.

And now you've pissed off people who control $400 billion of your assets.

This is going to help how?

"Soaking the rich" or other "increase tax" schemes sound great (as long as you aren't one of the people being taxed). But it's lousy math. Every time.

In the end, there are only two solutions to excessive debt:
1. Stop spending and hope you're creditors will spread out the payments long enough.
2. Get more productive so you can generate more income to pay them off sooner.

Everything else is nothing more than taking from one pocket and putting it into another.

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)

Pack93z
100% (Exalted)
Select Member

14 years ago

#222

5. Jim Walton ($19.6 bil, 61yo, Bentonville, Aaron Rodgers Wal-Mart) [Georgia]

7. S Robson Walton ($19 bil, 65yo, Bentonville, Aaron Rodgers Wal-Mart) [Dem. Rep. Congo]

"vikesrule" wrote:

😳

:icon_smile:

"Pack93z" wrote:

I blame the Auto replace routine. 🙂

"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"

Zero2Cool
100% (Exalted)
Elite Member Topic Starter

14 years ago

#223

5. Jim Walton ($19.6 bil, 61yo, Bentonville, Aaron Rodgers Wal-Mart) [Georgia]

7. S Robson Walton ($19 bil, 65yo, Bentonville, Aaron Rodgers Wal-Mart) [Dem. Rep. Congo]

"Pack93z" wrote:

😳

:icon_smile:

"vikesrule" wrote:

I blame the Auto replace routine. :)

"Pack93z" wrote:

I CREDIT the ingenious feature. 😉

yooperfan
100% (Exalted)
Veteran Member

14 years ago

#224

I call BULLSHIT!
We have had tax breaks for the rich since Reagan and it has never worked.
Where do these concerned corporations move their business
Oh yeah, to countries that pay a FEW bucks a day.

"Formo" wrote:

How exactly haven't they worked? Define 'worked'. See, to me, they HAVE worked. The rich, in Bush Jr's era(2004-6, I believe), the top 1% in income earners attribute 36.9% of total income taxes. The top 5% of income earners have paid 57.1% of income taxes. Conversely, the bottom 50% of income earners only have paid 3.3%.

Those corporations and businesses that move their OPERATIONS to other countries. Where labor is cheap (thus, very weakly taxed). Yeah, sure, they get tax breaks.. but because their costs of running the operations is way down, they have the money. Taxing them more isn't going to bring more jobs to the US.

"yooperfan" wrote:

And taxing them less hasn't brought any more jobs to the US.
Reagans trickle down theory didn't work period.
We went through one of the deepest recessions in US history during the Reagan Administration.Unemployment in The Upper Peninsula of Michigan was 17%.
I personally was out of work for the longest period of my working career which spanned 40 years. (3 years unemployed)
The Bush administration with the Bush taxcuts and deregulation designed to allow corporations (both financial and industrial) nearly brought on another "great depression.
The Clinton administration by comparison raised taxes and we actually enjoyed the greatest economy in the history of the world.
You see it's the middle class that spends their money in THIS COUNTRY. The rich fly off to Paris and Rome to do their Christmas Shopping.
Your statistics, artfully presented by fox news and their ilk are meaningless.
10% tax on a person making $20,000.00 dollars a year means a helluva lot more to that person than a 10% tax on a millionaire or Billionaire who have tax lawyers who take advantage of tax loopholes and in reality pay less in taxes than the person making minimum wage. Plus they and corporations hide their money in offshore accounts which is a whole other issue.
Just keep voting Republican and enabling the rich and watch the middle class disappear and we will be back in the 19th century.
Good luck begging for bread crumbs from the rich.

djcubez
65.25% (Friendly)
Senior Member

14 years ago

#225

It's starting to get ugly at the capitol. I'm getting that "old and rich" versus "young and educated" vibe again from all this.

Porforis
100% (Exalted)
Veteran Member

14 years ago

#226

It's starting to get ugly at the capitol. I'm getting that "old and rich" versus "young and educated" vibe again from all this.

"djcubez" wrote:

The only vibe I'm getting from this is "Oh dear, politics again. Only this time it's the Democrats throwing a hissy fit".

djcubez
65.25% (Friendly)
Senior Member

14 years ago

#227

It's starting to get ugly at the capitol. I'm getting that "old and rich" versus "young and educated" vibe again from all this.

"Porforis" wrote:

The only vibe I'm getting from this is "Oh dear, politics again. Only this time it's the Democrats throwing a hissy fit".

"djcubez" wrote:

True. I'm pretty sure Walker violated the law her somewhere though lol. It's a pretty nasty situation. Even one Republican voted "no" and wrote a statement saying how he wish their could have been a compromise.

musccy
100% (Exalted)
Veteran Member

14 years ago

#228

This is just a clusterfu** from every angle.

Walker said all along that the CBA/unions was purely budget related but it takes a re-write of the bill that eliminates budget matters from the language in order for him to pass what he wants, which further reinforces his and his lobotomized minions' (w/ the exception of Schultz) agenda.

Then yesterday was yet another clusterfu**. Although I think what the repubs did was illegal and cheap, Barca and the dems trying to pull the 24hr. public meeting card seems a little disingenous when they fled the state for 3 weeks (even though I support them doing so).

I'd like to reiterate that this is a clusterfu**!

Porforis
100% (Exalted)
Veteran Member

14 years ago

#229

Then yesterday was yet another clusterfu**. Although I think what the repubs did was illegal and cheap, Barca and the dems trying to pull the 24hr. public meeting card seems a little disingenous when they fled the state for 3 weeks (even though I support them doing so).

"musccy" wrote:

An assumption on my part, but I'm assuming that you were in favor of Obamacare. If all of the republican members of congress went to Canada to prevent a vote on the healthcare bill, would you support them doing so?

My point is, sleazy tactics that defy the entire idea behind our democratic process should not be tolerated no matter if we agree with the ends or not. The more we tolerate it the more of it we're going to get.

musccy
100% (Exalted)
Veteran Member

14 years ago

#230

I actually wasn't in favor of obamacare (even though I was for health care reform) because it was a 2,000+ page document that Peolsi and others said "lets pass it so we can understand its benefit later." I oppose this budget repair bill for that and other reasons.

I agree that what the 14 are doing is basically an unprecedented temper tantrum that I hope isn't a tactic that gets repeated ever again, hence my comments about Barca's complaints about them not fighting fair being little hypocritical.

At the same time, what other tactic did they have? It's pretty clear in polls, protests, and public outcry that the democrats are standing for at least a loud minority, and according to polling a loud majority (I'm only talking union, not the pensions/HC which I, and the majority appear to view as a "necessary evil"). However, Walker/Fitzgerald have just demonstrated in the last 24 hours, that they're opperating under a carte blanche mentality that they have now proved can't be stopped or negotiated with.

Porforis
100% (Exalted)
Veteran Member

14 years ago

#231

At the same time, what other tactic did they have? It's pretty clear in polls, protests, and public outcry that the democrats are standing for at least a loud minority

"musccy" wrote:

Not sure what this has to do with anything. The minority is usually pretty loud, that doesn't mean they're not a minority.

and according to polling a loud majority (I'm only talking union, not the pensions/HC which I, and the majority appear to view as a "necessary evil").

"musccy" wrote:

The context in which these polls are presented and the wording make a huge difference. When you change "Should unions have the right to collectively bargain for wages and benefits" to "When faced with a $3.6 Billion deficit, should teachers unions be able to collectively bargain for wage increases without a public referendum" the majority quickly becomes the minority. It's kind of like how everyone wants to get rid of hunger in the world, but when you start looking at what's required to make that a reality, suddenly people become quiet.

What this tells me is, while the middle-far left is the loud minority and the middle far right is the loud majority in terms of political representation, the majority of us are a lot closer to the middle and less likely to view things in absolutes for the sake of political soundbytes.

However, Walker/Fitzgerald have just demonstrated in the last 24 hours, that they're opperating under a carte blanche mentality that they have now proved can't be stopped or negotiated with.

"musccy" wrote:

I really don't know what to make of Walker, I know that if I were in his position I'd flat out refuse to negotiate with Democrats until they got their asses back to Madison. But I'd tone the rhetoric way down and be a lot more willing to communicate in the meantime. As I was getting at earlier, even though I'm more inclined to align myself with Walker's STATED viewpoint, that doesn't excuse political sleezery.

djcubez
65.25% (Friendly)
Senior Member

14 years ago

#232

Walker openly admitted that he never backs down. He said he never backed down in Milwaukee and he won't now. He seems hell-bent on pushing his agenda and not listening to the people. Wisconsin did elect him but that doesn't give him the right to become a dictator. Yes, I understand that he's not a complete dictator. Yes, I understand he's not the only agenda-pushing, stubborn and narrow-minded politician. But it just makes me angry how we're supposed to be voting in a person that represents the people, yet all these people we elect are only telling us what we want to hear until they're elected. Bunch of hogwash.

Zero2Cool
100% (Exalted)
Elite Member Topic Starter

14 years ago

#233

Scott Walker said he'd help the Wisconsin deficit, that's what he's trying to do.

You can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs.

musccy
100% (Exalted)
Veteran Member

14 years ago

#234

Porforis - I'm not explaining myself well. If you watch Maddow she'll tell you up to 80% nationally opposed union busting - bullshit - I agree there are flaws in polling! That's why I'm reluctant to cite polls as facts to prove a point. However, there is a lot of anecdotal evidence in a variety of polls and unprecedented public outrage so that saying the union-supporters are a majority could at least be rationally argued. I just acknowledge that it's difficult to quantify definitively and sans bias.

Which leads to my frustration with Fitz-Walker. I really do support portions of his suggestions such as the 6% hikes - I just detest the rhetoric, obvious "hidden" political agendas masqueraded as a budget saving measure, and his tunnel vision which thwarts his ability to negotiate or compromise.

Porforis
100% (Exalted)
Veteran Member

14 years ago

#235

"djcubez" wrote:

This is the stuff that drives me crazy. He's doing what he considers to be a good idea, he was elected by the people of Wisconsin. Is Obama a dictator for pressing various controversial bills/executive orders? No, he's doing what he thinks is best, regardless of whether I agree with him or not. My opinion isn't the only one out there and a lot of people disagree with me.

While I certainly don't think 99% of politicians have our best interests in mind, I don't think automatically assuming they're power-hungry fascists is a good idea either.

Porforis
100% (Exalted)
Veteran Member

14 years ago

#236

"musccy" wrote:

Don't think I disagree with anything here. Talking politics pisses me the hell off nowadays because 90% of people don't have the patience and decency to talk about things like adults. Thanks for being part of the 10%, we definitely don't need to agree but it's nice to see how much we have in common every so often. 🙂

musccy
100% (Exalted)
Veteran Member

14 years ago

#237

Scott Walker said he'd help the Wisconsin deficit, that's what he's trying to do.

You can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs.

"Zero2Cool" wrote:

My issue with this is that he keeps trying to break one egg and milk an omlet out of that while leaving the other 11 in the carton.

Unpaid furlogh days (under Doyle, mind you), pay freezes, 6% hc/pension increase, 1.3 bil in cut funding to K-college, abolish recycling funding, abolish select unions (why not police/fire?!?). That's a big hit on middle class public worker- but so be it, there's a 3.6 billion dollar hole to fill, and I'm OK with it...I'm also glad he canned the damn high speed rail!

-HOWEVER-

No raise in property or state tax to counter previously stated cuts, then you have out of state business/capital gains tax breaks (thus less $ into the state when we're in a supposed budget crisis), and the public funds you do spend, curiously get funneled to a 225 million dollar I94 construction project in Milwaukee and another in Racine, curiously where Walker is from.

musccy
100% (Exalted)
Veteran Member

14 years ago

#238

"Porforis" wrote:

Good to see we can agree on some things - plus we both agree that the Packers are great! :)

I was just watching a little bit of the assembly online expecting to see debate over the union portion of the bill. NOPE - I saw about 4 (likely more before I couldn't stand it anymore) democrats trying to oust Fitzwalker as the speaker :headwall:

I get the symbolism of the move, but really, what the hell will that accomplish? All you're doing is annoying the people who already don't want to negotiate with you.

Again, I appreciate that even though they have no power, they're standing up for themselves, but at the same time, if the repubs ever pulled stunts like this, or fleeing to IL, I'd be annoyed as hell with that too. As I said, this is one big clusterfu**

djcubez
65.25% (Friendly)
Senior Member

14 years ago

#239

"Porforis" wrote:

"djcubez" wrote:

Yes, you're probably right. But it doesn't mean that citizens aren't pawns in this political game; they truly are. Look at us arguing over this issue. How much misinformation do you see thrown around? Who is giving out this misinformation? The media? Political campaigns? Who controls the media and these campaigns? Corporations? Rich people? Sneak organizations? What do these people want? Things to go their way? To keep their money? To make more money? I'm not even arguing against specific parties here, I'm arguing against the political system in general.

People tend to grow up leaning towards one side and often stay on that side. Anything they hear that supports their side they'll reiterate as fact regardless. The information era and the internet have made it hard to find credible information, especially in political issues, making this bandying of misinformation even more absurd. It's gotten to the point where reasonable discussion is unheard of. Attempting to compromise seems futile. I'm sure people historically have always butted heads this way but now it just seems like mass hysteria. I really don't know who to believe now. For example I've heard 10 different figures thrown around all over the spectrum on a number that should just be fact. I mean, how do you know what to believe anymore? Everything seems like a conspiracy or a hidden agenda.

EDIT: In reflection this is mainly just a beef that I have instead of being an actual talking point. It just becomes tough to pick a side in these kinds of debates when both sides are constantly lying or attempting to manipulate information.

djcubez
65.25% (Friendly)
Senior Member

14 years ago

#240

Take it or leave it, here's Michael Moore's speech .

I don't agree with everything he has to say but I really liked this part:

To help prevent that day when the people demand their country back, the wealthy have done two very smart things:

1. They control the message. By owning most of the media they have expertly convinced many Americans of few means to buy their version of the American Dream and to vote for their politicians. Their version of the Dream says that you, too, might be rich some day this is America, where anything can happen if you just apply yourself! They have conveniently provided you with believable examples to show you how a poor boy can become a rich man, how the child of a single mother in Hawaii can become president, how a guy with a high school education can become a successful filmmaker. They will play these stories for you over and over again all day long so that the last thing you will want to do is upset the apple cart -- because you -- yes, you, too! -- might be rich/president/an Oscar-winner some day! The message is clear: keep your head down, your nose to the grindstone, don't rock the boat and be sure to vote for the party that protects the rich man that you might be some day.

My dad told me something similar. He believes that this is basically the driving force behind the Republican party; "some day I might be rich, so when I am I want to be able to keep that money!" And instead of becoming the rich, they just enable the wealthy to become wealthier.

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