Nonstopdrivel
15 years ago

You can't be a great QB until you sustain it or at least win a playoff game.

"porky88" wrote:



This argument only holds water if it applies to other positions on the field as well. Otherwise it's simply a case of special pleading. By this logic, Barry Sanders wasn't a great running back because the Lions never went anywhere during his tenure in Detroit. By this logic, too, Dan Marino wasn't a great quarterback because he disappeared in the playoffs  so often. Well, if that is so, then it's not that great a leap to argue that Brett Favre wasn't a great quarterback, considering his postseason record.

Only one team wins a championship every year. I can't buy the argument that great players only exist on playoff-winning teams. By that logic, Jason Hanson is one of the worst kickers in history.
UserPostedImage
porky88
15 years ago

You can't be a great QB until you sustain it or at least win a playoff game.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



This argument only holds water if it applies to other positions on the field as well. Otherwise it's simply a case of special pleading. By this logic, Barry Sanders wasn't a great running back because the Lions never went anywhere during his tenure in Detroit. By this logic, too, Dan Marino wasn't a great quarterback because he disappeared in the playoffs  so often. Well, if that is so, then it's not that great a leap to argue that Brett Favre wasn't a great quarterback, considering his postseason record.

Only one team wins a championship every year. I can't buy the argument that great players only exist on playoff-winning teams. By that logic, Jason Hanson is one of the worst kickers in history.

"porky88" wrote:



I don't believe evaluating football players is math. 1 +1 = 2 every time in math, but in football, you have exceptions.

My arguement is the difference between very good and great is a playoff win. At least at this stage in Rodgers' career. Never said wins nor did I say Super Bowl. Sanders and Marino have won in the playoffs before. I will say, again, there are always exceptions to the rule, especially in football. By logic if every player was as equaled value as his teammate, everyone would make the same amount of money. That's just not the case for obvious reasons. Some players are clearly more important.

Sanders and Marino are exceptions. Rodgers? Too early to tell. I have never seen him play a playoff game. I saw him play in Tampa Bay twice. He hasn't been great there. Who's to say he won't lay an egg in the playoffs? I simply don't know right now. I don't think he will, but I wouldn't take anything off the table in football. That's why I say he's very good and not great. I'll listen to my eyes rather than some piece of paper.
Nonstopdrivel
15 years ago
Just to clarify, I'm not arguing that Rodgers is or is not elite. He's a second-year starter -- his career could be long and fruitful, or it could have a meteoric end. I'm merely objecting to the use of postseason wins as a metric of individual player greatness. After all, the backups on the Steelers roster have rings, too, but no one would argue they're better than Rodgers. I hope.
UserPostedImage
zombieslayer
15 years ago

Just to clarify, I'm not arguing that Rodgers is or is not elite. He's a second-year starter -- his career could be long and fruitful, or it could have a meteoric end. I'm merely objecting to the use of postseason wins as a metric of individual player greatness. After all, the backups on the Steelers roster have rings, too, but no one would argue they're better than Rodgers. I hope.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



I have Rodgers ranked #5 in 2009 after 11 games. Means nothing, I know, until the post season.

I hate the word "great" as I believe it's overused and great should really mean Hall of Fame. Right now, our Hall of Fame QBs are Favre, Brady, and P Manning. A few others active today will make it (Kurt Warner immediately comes to mind) and a few more will be nominated.

We can't honestly evaluate Rodgers' career until it's much older. It's his second freaking year.

"Elite" however is a word that separates players. We have elite QBs (Favre, Manning, Brees, Brady, Rodgers), then solid, then average, then it doesn't matter because when they're below average, it's meaningless.

Elite is a yearly word. For example, Ahman Green was elite in 2003. He's not elite today. Get it?

Alex Smith, I've heard every excuse in the book for him. I'm in San Franfreakingcisco. I heard it all. No, I'm tired of them and not willing to let him off the hook. He's had his chances. He's blown them.

Alex Smith can't walk in Aaron Rodgers shoes. He can't do it. Rodgers is clearly better and would be better if Smith was drafted as a Packer and Rodgers as a 49er.
My man Donald Driver
UserPostedImage
(thanks to Pack93z for the pic)
2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. 🇹🇹 🇲🇲 🇦🇷
Nonstopdrivel
15 years ago
I think it's time for a reductio ad absurdum argument.

For those of you who have the likes of Eli Manning and Ben Roethlisberger ranked over Aaron Rodgers because they have rings, I have a question. If a quarterback were to fail to throw a touchdown pass the entire season, yet still manage to eke out a Super Bowl victory, would he be a better quarterback than one who had thrown 35 touchdowns but failed to make the playoffs?

Can you truly be consistent in your argument if you answer no?
UserPostedImage
zombieslayer
15 years ago
I'll take it a step further. Anyone who says Eli Manning or Big Ben are better QBs than Drew Brees needs to be slapped upside their head.
My man Donald Driver
UserPostedImage
(thanks to Pack93z for the pic)
2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. 🇹🇹 🇲🇲 🇦🇷
porky88
15 years ago
I'd take Ben over Rodgers right now. Just like I think John Elway is a better player than Dan Marino. Marino had much better numbers, but Elway to me, was one of the greatest ever.

The arguement that Ben had nothing to do with Pittsburgh's Super Bowls is wrong quite frankly. The first Super Bowl he was terrible in. No doubt about it, but he also was very good up in Denver in the AFC Championship that year. Actually, near flawless. I'm not sure Pittsburgh wins without Ben that year. I don't think they do. To ignore the AFC Title game is nitpicking.

Roethlisberger isn't one of the best QBs in football because he puts up big time fantasy numbers every year. He is because he plays up to the moment. Yes, he can play down to the moment as well, but there is something to be said about a player or person that rises to the occasion.

Rodgers hasn't done that yet. Doesn't mean he won't, but until he does, I'm not taking him over Ben.

As far as Eli Manning goes. He outplayed Tony Romo, Brett Favre, and Tom Brady in the postseason. Since then, he's gone down hill and it's looking like he had a fluke run. I think Rodgers surpassed him based on watching the two players play the game. Again, I use my eyes to make my decisions. The statbook is just there to offer a little guidance.
Rockmolder
15 years ago
It's always interesting to see that the QB who digs his team into a hole and finally gets them out of that same hole gets all the praise, while the QB who plays consistently well is taken for granted.

Not saying that that's totally the case here, but Ben throws quite a few interceptions to TDs and, when he finally takes his team back, he gets all the praise. Not the vaunted defense that stops the other team, giving Ben 4 drives to mount a comeback, but the offense, which finally scores after multiple failed drives.

Just for some reference, their offense was the 22nd in the league last year, with the passing game ranking 17th. To me, that means you can't move the ball and shows that you've been riding the coattail of your defense quite effectively. Just like Terry Bradshaw.

Rodgers, on the other hand, let our offense quite effectively, while having about the same problems as the Steelers. Bad o-line, ours being a bit worse, but good receiving core, ours being a bit better. Problem is, he didn't have the nr. 1 ranked defense, so they didn't win any play-off games for him. They actually let a lot of comeback games slip away.

They actually worked against us more than with us, but that's a whole different story.

I can imagine that that isn't everything, though, but next to all of that, Rodgers has more impressive statistics himself and his throws and reads look a lot better and cleaner. Ben is a tank, he won't go down and maybe Rodgers doesn't make great pre-snap reads, but I can't imagine that you'd take Ben over Rodgers for just those reasons.

I don't believe in magic intangibles. Winning is not in your blood, or something.
zombieslayer
15 years ago

It's always interesting to see that the QB who digs his team into a hole and finally gets them out of that same hole gets all the praise, while the QB who plays consistently well is taken for granted.

Not saying that that's totally the case here, but Ben throws quite a few interceptions to TDs and, when he finally takes his team back, he gets all the praise. Not the vaunted defense that stops the other team, giving Ben 4 drives to mount a comeback, but the offense, which finally scores after multiple failed drives.

Just for some reference, their offense was the 22nd in the league last year, with the passing game ranking 17th. To me, that means you can't move the ball and shows that you've been riding the coattail of your defense quite effectively. Just like Terry Bradshaw.

Rodgers, on the other hand, let our offense quite effectively, while having about the same problems as the Steelers. Bad o-line, ours being a bit worse, but good receiving core, ours being a bit better. Problem is, he didn't have the nr. 1 ranked defense, so they didn't win any play-off games for him. They actually let a lot of comeback games slip away.

They actually worked against us more than with us, but that's a whole different story.

I can imagine that that isn't everything, though, but next to all of that, Rodgers has more impressive statistics himself and his throws and reads look a lot better and cleaner. Ben is a tank, he won't go down and maybe Rodgers doesn't make great pre-snap reads, but I can't imagine that you'd take Ben over Rodgers for just those reasons.

I don't believe in magic intangibles. Winning is not in your blood, or something.

"Rockmolder" wrote:



+1
My man Donald Driver
UserPostedImage
(thanks to Pack93z for the pic)
2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. 🇹🇹 🇲🇲 🇦🇷
porky88
15 years ago

It's always interesting to see that the QB who digs his team into a hole and finally gets them out of that same hole gets all the praise, while the QB who plays consistently well is taken for granted.

Not saying that that's totally the case here, but Ben throws quite a few interceptions to TDs and, when he finally takes his team back, he gets all the praise. Not the vaunted defense that stops the other team, giving Ben 4 drives to mount a comeback, but the offense, which finally scores after multiple failed drives.

Just for some reference, their offense was the 22nd in the league last year, with the passing game ranking 17th. To me, that means you can't move the ball and shows that you've been riding the coattail of your defense quite effectively. Just like Terry Bradshaw.

Rodgers, on the other hand, let our offense quite effectively, while having about the same problems as the Steelers. Bad o-line, ours being a bit worse, but good receiving core, ours being a bit better. Problem is, he didn't have the nr. 1 ranked defense, so they didn't win any play-off games for him. They actually let a lot of comeback games slip away.

They actually worked against us more than with us, but that's a whole different story.

I can imagine that that isn't everything, though, but next to all of that, Rodgers has more impressive statistics himself and his throws and reads look a lot better and cleaner. Ben is a tank, he won't go down and maybe Rodgers doesn't make great pre-snap reads, but I can't imagine that you'd take Ben over Rodgers for just those reasons.

I don't believe in magic intangibles. Winning is not in your blood, or something.

"Rockmolder" wrote:



Again, those stats are all cute, but they're stats. They're there for guidance, but I'm not making a final decision when I can watch the two players play and come to a final conclusion using my eyes. If you believe Rodgers, who has never played in the postseason yet is better than Ben, then that's obviously your view. It's based solely on stats though which I don't believe is end all or tell all. The best stats don't always = championships. They help, but again, nothing is ever constant. Football is and never will be that easy.

Players that play well on the big stage like a Favre, Brady, Manning, Brees (tonight) and yes, a Ben Roethlisberger have that extra "something" that separates them from a player like a Matt Schaub.

Aaron Brooks in 2002 and 2003 averaged 25 touchdowns, 3,500-plus yards. Keep in mind, I believe it was in this exact same offense. Is he on a similar level as say Aaron Rodgers though? Of course not because of things that are shown when they play. A few things worth noting are: Rodgers reads defenses better, makes better decisions, and I think he's a better leader. On the bookend of those seasons, Brooks had some nice numbers as well. That was it though.

Ben only has topped those numbers in one season, but so has Rodgers. You really think Brooks is a better QB than Ben Roethlisberger? That's what the numbers say, but again, numbers are never bulletproof. Rodgers is only in his second year and will have his second solid season. In fact, he's on pace to have an amazing season.

Roetherlisger had 32 touchdowns, 11 INTs, over 3,000 yards and completed 65% of his passes. His QB rating was 104.1. His team won ten games. This was in 2007. He's on pace to throw over 4,000 yards this season and 25 touchdown passes. Only 15 INTs which isn't that bad. If he keeps up this pace, that's his second "stat" year for you to wrap your head around. Ironically, the same as Rodgers.

Ben is only 27 which is two years older than Rodgers. There is still along ways to go for both of them.

It's almost like an insult in your view that someone would put Ben ahead of Rodgers. I'm not saying Ben is a much better QB than Rodgers or that it's not close. I think it is.
Fan Shout
Zero2Cool (2h) : Frigging host issues for site again
beast (2h) : For the first time in their long history, the Bears fire their head coach mid-season. Which comes after three very close in-division losses.
Zero2Cool (20h) : At the game now. Kampman and Cullen Jenkins are here.
buckeyepackfan (20h) : Happy Thanksgiving Packer Fans! Gonna celebrate with some grilled Dolphin later!
buckeyepackfan (20h) : Inactive 23 CB Jaire Alexander 56 LB Edgerrin Cooper 62 OL Jacob Monk 87 WR Romeo Doubs
dhazer (20h) : Just a talking point, do we try and trade Jaire next year to get out from the contract as he can't stay healthy
Zero2Cool (21h) : Happy Thanksgiving! About to head to game.
wpr (22h) : Happy Thanksgiving
Martha Careful (28-Nov) : Happy Thanksgiving Everybody...Go Packers!!!
Zero2Cool (28-Nov) : That is what a lot of people seem to think. Even though when he was on Giants, he was trash.
Martha Careful (27-Nov) : Brilliant move by Vikings!!! The signing provide great leverage in Darnold negotiations
Mucky Tundra (27-Nov) : Boo!
Zero2Cool (27-Nov) : Packers have ruled out Jaire Alexander, Edgerrin Cooper, and Romeo Doubs for Thursday's game against the Dolphins.
Zero2Cool (27-Nov) : Daniel Jones joins Vikings
Zero2Cool (27-Nov) : Tomorrow high 32° and low 19°
beast (27-Nov) : Thanks Mucky!
Mucky Tundra (27-Nov) : beast, forecast is looking like 27-28 degrees at kickoff, slight chance of snow flurries
Zero2Cool (27-Nov) : Oh? It wasn't on the injury report. That sucks, but it's what is best.
packerfanoutwest (26-Nov) : Doubs is out due to concussion
beast (26-Nov) : What does the weather look like?
Martha Careful (26-Nov) : You can wear long-johns mittens and a hat. We want Hill and their other skill guys FROZEN
Zero2Cool (26-Nov) : I'm not sure I hope for that. I'll be at the game.
Martha Careful (25-Nov) : I hope it is colder than a well-diggers ass on Thanksgiving night.
Zero2Cool (25-Nov) : doubt he wants to face the speedsters
beast (25-Nov) : Dolphins offense can be explosive... I wonder if we'll have Alexander back
Zero2Cool (25-Nov) : No Doubs could be issue Thursday
Mucky Tundra (25-Nov) : Bears. Santos. Blocked FG
Zero2Cool (24-Nov) : Bears. Vikings. OT
Mucky Tundra (24-Nov) : Thems the breaks I guess
Mucky Tundra (24-Nov) : Two players out and Williams had an injury designation this week but Oladapo is a healthy scratch
Zero2Cool (24-Nov) : Packers inactives vs 49ers: • CB Jaire Alexander • S Kitan Oladapo • LB Edgerrin Cooper • OL Jacob Monk
TheKanataThrilla (24-Nov) : Aaron Jones with a costly red zone fumble
Zero2Cool (24-Nov) : When we trade Malik for a 1st rounder, we'll need a new QB2.
packerfanoutwest (23-Nov) : Report: Aaron Rodgers wants to play in 2025, but not for the Jets
beast (23-Nov) : That's what I told the Police officer about my speed when he pulled me over
packerfanoutwest (23-Nov) : NFL told Bears that Packers’ blocked field goal was legal
packerfanoutwest (22-Nov) : 49ers are underdogs at Packers, ending streak of 36 straight games as favorites
Zero2Cool (22-Nov) : 49ers might be down their QB, DL, TE and LT?
packerfanoutwest (22-Nov) : Jaire Alexander says he has a torn PCL
Zero2Cool (20-Nov) : Even with the context it's ... what?
Mucky Tundra (20-Nov) : Matt LaFleur without context: “I don’t wanna pat you on the butt and you poop in my hand.”
beast (20-Nov) : We brought in a former Packers OL coach to help evaluate OL as a scout
beast (20-Nov) : Jets have been pretty good at picking DL
Zero2Cool (20-Nov) : He landed good players thanks to high draft slot. He isn't good.
Zero2Cool (20-Nov) : He can shove his knowledge up his ass. He knows nothing.
beast (20-Nov) : More knowledge, just like bring in the Jets head coach
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : What? Why? Huh?
beast (19-Nov) : I wonder if the Packers might to try to bring Douglas in through Milt Hendrickson/Ravens connections
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : The Jets fired Joe Douglas, per sources
packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : Jets are a mess......
Please sign in to use Fan Shout
2024 Packers Schedule
Friday, Sep 6 @ 7:15 PM
Eagles
Sunday, Sep 15 @ 12:00 PM
COLTS
Sunday, Sep 22 @ 12:00 PM
Titans
Sunday, Sep 29 @ 12:00 PM
VIKINGS
Sunday, Oct 6 @ 3:25 PM
Rams
Sunday, Oct 13 @ 12:00 PM
CARDINALS
Sunday, Oct 20 @ 12:00 PM
TEXANS
Sunday, Oct 27 @ 12:00 PM
Jaguars
Sunday, Nov 3 @ 3:25 PM
LIONS
Sunday, Nov 17 @ 12:00 PM
Bears
Sunday, Nov 24 @ 3:25 PM
49ERS
Thursday, Nov 28 @ 7:20 PM
DOLPHINS
Thursday, Dec 5 @ 7:15 PM
Lions
Sunday, Dec 15 @ 7:20 PM
Seahawks
Monday, Dec 23 @ 7:15 PM
SAINTS
Sunday, Dec 29 @ 12:00 PM
Vikings
Saturday, Jan 4 @ 11:00 PM
BEARS
Recent Topics
37m / Green Bay Packers Talk / bboystyle

2h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

8h / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

27-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

27-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

26-Nov / Featured Content / Martha Careful

26-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

25-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

25-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / buckeyepackfan

24-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / buckeyepackfan

24-Nov / GameDay Threads / Zero2Cool

23-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / dfosterf

23-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

21-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Martha Careful

21-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

Headlines
Copyright © 2006 - 2024 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.