Nonstopdrivel
15 years ago

You can't be a great QB until you sustain it or at least win a playoff game.

"porky88" wrote:



This argument only holds water if it applies to other positions on the field as well. Otherwise it's simply a case of special pleading. By this logic, Barry Sanders wasn't a great running back because the Lions never went anywhere during his tenure in Detroit. By this logic, too, Dan Marino wasn't a great quarterback because he disappeared in the playoffs  so often. Well, if that is so, then it's not that great a leap to argue that Brett Favre wasn't a great quarterback, considering his postseason record.

Only one team wins a championship every year. I can't buy the argument that great players only exist on playoff-winning teams. By that logic, Jason Hanson is one of the worst kickers in history.
UserPostedImage
porky88
15 years ago

You can't be a great QB until you sustain it or at least win a playoff game.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



This argument only holds water if it applies to other positions on the field as well. Otherwise it's simply a case of special pleading. By this logic, Barry Sanders wasn't a great running back because the Lions never went anywhere during his tenure in Detroit. By this logic, too, Dan Marino wasn't a great quarterback because he disappeared in the playoffs  so often. Well, if that is so, then it's not that great a leap to argue that Brett Favre wasn't a great quarterback, considering his postseason record.

Only one team wins a championship every year. I can't buy the argument that great players only exist on playoff-winning teams. By that logic, Jason Hanson is one of the worst kickers in history.

"porky88" wrote:



I don't believe evaluating football players is math. 1 +1 = 2 every time in math, but in football, you have exceptions.

My arguement is the difference between very good and great is a playoff win. At least at this stage in Rodgers' career. Never said wins nor did I say Super Bowl. Sanders and Marino have won in the playoffs before. I will say, again, there are always exceptions to the rule, especially in football. By logic if every player was as equaled value as his teammate, everyone would make the same amount of money. That's just not the case for obvious reasons. Some players are clearly more important.

Sanders and Marino are exceptions. Rodgers? Too early to tell. I have never seen him play a playoff game. I saw him play in Tampa Bay twice. He hasn't been great there. Who's to say he won't lay an egg in the playoffs? I simply don't know right now. I don't think he will, but I wouldn't take anything off the table in football. That's why I say he's very good and not great. I'll listen to my eyes rather than some piece of paper.
Nonstopdrivel
15 years ago
Just to clarify, I'm not arguing that Rodgers is or is not elite. He's a second-year starter -- his career could be long and fruitful, or it could have a meteoric end. I'm merely objecting to the use of postseason wins as a metric of individual player greatness. After all, the backups on the Steelers roster have rings, too, but no one would argue they're better than Rodgers. I hope.
UserPostedImage
zombieslayer
15 years ago

Just to clarify, I'm not arguing that Rodgers is or is not elite. He's a second-year starter -- his career could be long and fruitful, or it could have a meteoric end. I'm merely objecting to the use of postseason wins as a metric of individual player greatness. After all, the backups on the Steelers roster have rings, too, but no one would argue they're better than Rodgers. I hope.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



I have Rodgers ranked #5 in 2009 after 11 games. Means nothing, I know, until the post season.

I hate the word "great" as I believe it's overused and great should really mean Hall of Fame. Right now, our Hall of Fame QBs are Favre, Brady, and P Manning. A few others active today will make it (Kurt Warner immediately comes to mind) and a few more will be nominated.

We can't honestly evaluate Rodgers' career until it's much older. It's his second freaking year.

"Elite" however is a word that separates players. We have elite QBs (Favre, Manning, Brees, Brady, Rodgers), then solid, then average, then it doesn't matter because when they're below average, it's meaningless.

Elite is a yearly word. For example, Ahman Green was elite in 2003. He's not elite today. Get it?

Alex Smith, I've heard every excuse in the book for him. I'm in San Franfreakingcisco. I heard it all. No, I'm tired of them and not willing to let him off the hook. He's had his chances. He's blown them.

Alex Smith can't walk in Aaron Rodgers shoes. He can't do it. Rodgers is clearly better and would be better if Smith was drafted as a Packer and Rodgers as a 49er.
My man Donald Driver
UserPostedImage
(thanks to Pack93z for the pic)
2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. 🇹🇹 🇲🇲 🇦🇷
Nonstopdrivel
15 years ago
I think it's time for a reductio ad absurdum argument.

For those of you who have the likes of Eli Manning and Ben Roethlisberger ranked over Aaron Rodgers because they have rings, I have a question. If a quarterback were to fail to throw a touchdown pass the entire season, yet still manage to eke out a Super Bowl victory, would he be a better quarterback than one who had thrown 35 touchdowns but failed to make the playoffs?

Can you truly be consistent in your argument if you answer no?
UserPostedImage
zombieslayer
15 years ago
I'll take it a step further. Anyone who says Eli Manning or Big Ben are better QBs than Drew Brees needs to be slapped upside their head.
My man Donald Driver
UserPostedImage
(thanks to Pack93z for the pic)
2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. 🇹🇹 🇲🇲 🇦🇷
porky88
15 years ago
I'd take Ben over Rodgers right now. Just like I think John Elway is a better player than Dan Marino. Marino had much better numbers, but Elway to me, was one of the greatest ever.

The arguement that Ben had nothing to do with Pittsburgh's Super Bowls is wrong quite frankly. The first Super Bowl he was terrible in. No doubt about it, but he also was very good up in Denver in the AFC Championship that year. Actually, near flawless. I'm not sure Pittsburgh wins without Ben that year. I don't think they do. To ignore the AFC Title game is nitpicking.

Roethlisberger isn't one of the best QBs in football because he puts up big time fantasy numbers every year. He is because he plays up to the moment. Yes, he can play down to the moment as well, but there is something to be said about a player or person that rises to the occasion.

Rodgers hasn't done that yet. Doesn't mean he won't, but until he does, I'm not taking him over Ben.

As far as Eli Manning goes. He outplayed Tony Romo, Brett Favre, and Tom Brady in the postseason. Since then, he's gone down hill and it's looking like he had a fluke run. I think Rodgers surpassed him based on watching the two players play the game. Again, I use my eyes to make my decisions. The statbook is just there to offer a little guidance.
Rockmolder
15 years ago
It's always interesting to see that the QB who digs his team into a hole and finally gets them out of that same hole gets all the praise, while the QB who plays consistently well is taken for granted.

Not saying that that's totally the case here, but Ben throws quite a few interceptions to TDs and, when he finally takes his team back, he gets all the praise. Not the vaunted defense that stops the other team, giving Ben 4 drives to mount a comeback, but the offense, which finally scores after multiple failed drives.

Just for some reference, their offense was the 22nd in the league last year, with the passing game ranking 17th. To me, that means you can't move the ball and shows that you've been riding the coattail of your defense quite effectively. Just like Terry Bradshaw.

Rodgers, on the other hand, let our offense quite effectively, while having about the same problems as the Steelers. Bad o-line, ours being a bit worse, but good receiving core, ours being a bit better. Problem is, he didn't have the nr. 1 ranked defense, so they didn't win any play-off games for him. They actually let a lot of comeback games slip away.

They actually worked against us more than with us, but that's a whole different story.

I can imagine that that isn't everything, though, but next to all of that, Rodgers has more impressive statistics himself and his throws and reads look a lot better and cleaner. Ben is a tank, he won't go down and maybe Rodgers doesn't make great pre-snap reads, but I can't imagine that you'd take Ben over Rodgers for just those reasons.

I don't believe in magic intangibles. Winning is not in your blood, or something.
zombieslayer
15 years ago

It's always interesting to see that the QB who digs his team into a hole and finally gets them out of that same hole gets all the praise, while the QB who plays consistently well is taken for granted.

Not saying that that's totally the case here, but Ben throws quite a few interceptions to TDs and, when he finally takes his team back, he gets all the praise. Not the vaunted defense that stops the other team, giving Ben 4 drives to mount a comeback, but the offense, which finally scores after multiple failed drives.

Just for some reference, their offense was the 22nd in the league last year, with the passing game ranking 17th. To me, that means you can't move the ball and shows that you've been riding the coattail of your defense quite effectively. Just like Terry Bradshaw.

Rodgers, on the other hand, let our offense quite effectively, while having about the same problems as the Steelers. Bad o-line, ours being a bit worse, but good receiving core, ours being a bit better. Problem is, he didn't have the nr. 1 ranked defense, so they didn't win any play-off games for him. They actually let a lot of comeback games slip away.

They actually worked against us more than with us, but that's a whole different story.

I can imagine that that isn't everything, though, but next to all of that, Rodgers has more impressive statistics himself and his throws and reads look a lot better and cleaner. Ben is a tank, he won't go down and maybe Rodgers doesn't make great pre-snap reads, but I can't imagine that you'd take Ben over Rodgers for just those reasons.

I don't believe in magic intangibles. Winning is not in your blood, or something.

"Rockmolder" wrote:



+1
My man Donald Driver
UserPostedImage
(thanks to Pack93z for the pic)
2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. 🇹🇹 🇲🇲 🇦🇷
porky88
15 years ago

It's always interesting to see that the QB who digs his team into a hole and finally gets them out of that same hole gets all the praise, while the QB who plays consistently well is taken for granted.

Not saying that that's totally the case here, but Ben throws quite a few interceptions to TDs and, when he finally takes his team back, he gets all the praise. Not the vaunted defense that stops the other team, giving Ben 4 drives to mount a comeback, but the offense, which finally scores after multiple failed drives.

Just for some reference, their offense was the 22nd in the league last year, with the passing game ranking 17th. To me, that means you can't move the ball and shows that you've been riding the coattail of your defense quite effectively. Just like Terry Bradshaw.

Rodgers, on the other hand, let our offense quite effectively, while having about the same problems as the Steelers. Bad o-line, ours being a bit worse, but good receiving core, ours being a bit better. Problem is, he didn't have the nr. 1 ranked defense, so they didn't win any play-off games for him. They actually let a lot of comeback games slip away.

They actually worked against us more than with us, but that's a whole different story.

I can imagine that that isn't everything, though, but next to all of that, Rodgers has more impressive statistics himself and his throws and reads look a lot better and cleaner. Ben is a tank, he won't go down and maybe Rodgers doesn't make great pre-snap reads, but I can't imagine that you'd take Ben over Rodgers for just those reasons.

I don't believe in magic intangibles. Winning is not in your blood, or something.

"Rockmolder" wrote:



Again, those stats are all cute, but they're stats. They're there for guidance, but I'm not making a final decision when I can watch the two players play and come to a final conclusion using my eyes. If you believe Rodgers, who has never played in the postseason yet is better than Ben, then that's obviously your view. It's based solely on stats though which I don't believe is end all or tell all. The best stats don't always = championships. They help, but again, nothing is ever constant. Football is and never will be that easy.

Players that play well on the big stage like a Favre, Brady, Manning, Brees (tonight) and yes, a Ben Roethlisberger have that extra "something" that separates them from a player like a Matt Schaub.

Aaron Brooks in 2002 and 2003 averaged 25 touchdowns, 3,500-plus yards. Keep in mind, I believe it was in this exact same offense. Is he on a similar level as say Aaron Rodgers though? Of course not because of things that are shown when they play. A few things worth noting are: Rodgers reads defenses better, makes better decisions, and I think he's a better leader. On the bookend of those seasons, Brooks had some nice numbers as well. That was it though.

Ben only has topped those numbers in one season, but so has Rodgers. You really think Brooks is a better QB than Ben Roethlisberger? That's what the numbers say, but again, numbers are never bulletproof. Rodgers is only in his second year and will have his second solid season. In fact, he's on pace to have an amazing season.

Roetherlisger had 32 touchdowns, 11 INTs, over 3,000 yards and completed 65% of his passes. His QB rating was 104.1. His team won ten games. This was in 2007. He's on pace to throw over 4,000 yards this season and 25 touchdown passes. Only 15 INTs which isn't that bad. If he keeps up this pace, that's his second "stat" year for you to wrap your head around. Ironically, the same as Rodgers.

Ben is only 27 which is two years older than Rodgers. There is still along ways to go for both of them.

It's almost like an insult in your view that someone would put Ben ahead of Rodgers. I'm not saying Ben is a much better QB than Rodgers or that it's not close. I think it is.
Fan Shout
Zero2Cool (1h) : QB coach Sean Mannion
Zero2Cool (1h) : DL Coach DeMarcus Covington
dfosterf (4h) : from ft Belvoir, Quantico and points south. Somber reminder of this tragedy at Reagan Nat Airport
dfosterf (4h) : So eerily quiet here in Alexandria. I live in the flight path of commercial craft coming from the south and west, plus the military craft
dfosterf (4h) : So eeri
Mucky Tundra (7h) : Now that's a thought, maybe they're looking at the college ranks? Maybe not head coaches but DC/assistant DCs with league experience?
beast (9h) : College Coaches wouldn't want that publicly, as it would hurt recruiting and they might not get the job.
beast (9h) : I thought they were supposed to publicly announce them, at least the NFL ones. Hafley was from college, so I believe different rules.
Mucky Tundra (9h) : Who knows who they're interviewing? I mean, nobody knew about Hafley and then out of nowhere he was hired
beast (12h) : I wonder what's taking so long with hiring a DL coach, 2 of the 3 known to interview have already been hired elsewhere.
Zero2Cool (27-Jan) : Packers coach Matt LaFleur hires Luke Getsy as senior assistant, extends Rich Bisaccia's deal
Zero2Cool (27-Jan) : Chiefs again huh? I guess another Super Bowl I'll be finding something else to do.
Mucky Tundra (27-Jan) : Chiefs Eagles...again...sigh
dfosterf (27-Jan) : Happy Birthday Dave!
Mucky Tundra (27-Jan) : happy birthday dhazer
TheKanataThrilla (26-Jan) : Exactly buck...Washington came up with the ball. It is just a shitty coincidence one week later
buckeyepackfan (26-Jan) : I forgot, they corrected the call a week later. Lol btw HAPPY BIRTHDAY dhazer!
buckeyepackfan (26-Jan) : That brings up the question, why wasn't Nixon down by contact? I think that was the point Kanata was making.
buckeyepackfan (26-Jan) : Turnovers rule, win the turnover battle, win the game.
packerfanoutwest (26-Jan) : well, he was
TheKanataThrilla (26-Jan) : Eagles down by contact on the fumble....fuck you NFL
Mucky Tundra (26-Jan) : I think this games over
beast (26-Jan) : Eagles sure get a lot of fumbles on kickoffs
Mucky Tundra (26-Jan) : This game looks too big for Washington
packerfanoutwest (26-Jan) : that being said, The Ravens are the Browns
packerfanoutwest (26-Jan) : Browns, Dolphins have longest AFC Championship droughts
packerfanoutwest (26-Jan) : As of today, Cowboys have longest NFC Championship drought,
beast (26-Jan) : Someone pointed out, with Raiders hiring Carroll, the division games between Carroll and Jim Harbaugh are back on (who can whine more games)
beast (26-Jan) : I'm confused, Pete Carroll and Brian Schottenheimer? When Todd Monken, Joe Brady, Kellen Moore, Kliff Kingsbury and Zac Robinson are availab
Zero2Cool (25-Jan) : Any reason I'm catching a shot here about my intelligence?
Martha Careful (25-Jan) : thank you Mucky for sticking up for me
Martha Careful (25-Jan) : some of those people are smarter than you zero. However Pete Carroll is not
Mucky Tundra (24-Jan) : Rude!
beast (24-Jan) : Martha? 😋
Zero2Cool (24-Jan) : Raiders hired someone from the elderly home.
dfosterf (24-Jan) : I'm going with a combination of the two.
beast (24-Jan) : Either the Cowboys have no idea what they're doing, or they're targeting their former OC, currently the Eagles OC
Zero2Cool (23-Jan) : Fake news. Cowboys say no
Zero2Cool (23-Jan) : Mystery candidate in the Cowboys head coaching search believed to be Packers ST Coordinator Rich Bisaccia.
beast (23-Jan) : Also why do both NYC teams have absolutely horrible OL for over a decade?
beast (23-Jan) : I wonder why the Jets always hire defensive coaches to be head coach
Zero2Cool (22-Jan) : Still HC positions available out there. I wonder if Hafley pops up for one
Zero2Cool (22-Jan) : Trent Baalke is out as the Jaguars GM.
dfosterf (22-Jan) : Jeff Hafley would have been a better choice, fortunately they don't know that. Someone will figure that out next off season
Zero2Cool (22-Jan) : Aaron Glenn Planning To Take Jets HC Job
dfosterf (22-Jan) : Martha- C'est mon boulot! 😁
Zero2Cool (22-Jan) : Thank you
wpr (22-Jan) : Z, glad you are feeling better.
wpr (22-Jan) : My son and D-I-L work for UM. It's a way to pick on them.
Zero2Cool (22-Jan) : Thank you. I rarely get sick, and even more rarely sick to the point I can't work.
Please sign in to use Fan Shout
2024 Packers Schedule
Friday, Sep 6 @ 7:15 PM
Eagles
Sunday, Sep 15 @ 12:00 PM
COLTS
Sunday, Sep 22 @ 12:00 PM
Titans
Sunday, Sep 29 @ 12:00 PM
VIKINGS
Sunday, Oct 6 @ 3:25 PM
Rams
Sunday, Oct 13 @ 12:00 PM
CARDINALS
Sunday, Oct 20 @ 12:00 PM
TEXANS
Sunday, Oct 27 @ 12:00 PM
Jaguars
Sunday, Nov 3 @ 3:25 PM
LIONS
Sunday, Nov 17 @ 12:00 PM
Bears
Sunday, Nov 24 @ 3:25 PM
49ERS
Thursday, Nov 28 @ 7:20 PM
DOLPHINS
Thursday, Dec 5 @ 7:15 PM
Lions
Sunday, Dec 15 @ 7:20 PM
Seahawks
Monday, Dec 23 @ 7:15 PM
SAINTS
Sunday, Dec 29 @ 3:25 PM
Vikings
Sunday, Jan 5 @ 12:00 PM
BEARS
Sunday, Jan 12 @ 3:30 PM
Eagles
Recent Topics
2h / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

11h / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

21h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

27-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / packerfanoutwest

27-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

25-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

25-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / Martha Careful

25-Jan / Random Babble / Martha Careful

20-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / Martha Careful

20-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / bboystyle

20-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

20-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

19-Jan / Random Babble / Martha Careful

18-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

17-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / bboystyle

Headlines
Copyright © 2006 - 2025 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.