zombieslayer
12 years ago
Zero - What Dodd said is what I was trying to say.
My man Donald Driver
UserPostedImage
(thanks to Pack93z for the pic)
2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. 🇹🇹 🇲🇲 🇦🇷
Zero2Cool
12 years ago

We've been down this road several times before, and while I don't mean to minimize the significant of losing Collins, I still disagree. The best communication and coverage in the world will only last so long. Eventually, an elite QB is going to throw someone open, especially the likes of a Jimmy Graham, Sproles, Nicks, Cruz, Calvin Johnson, etc. That's why you always hear the "plan" to disrupt elite QBs like Brady et. al. is to pressure them and make them uncomfortable. If they're standing still taking their time in the pocket, they're going to hit someone enough to score significant points. Defenses HAVE to find some way to make the QB uncomfortable in the pocket or it's going to be a LONG day for them.

Pass rush can mask a weak secondary, but a great secondary can only mask for a lack of pass rush to a certain extent. Eventually, some type of pressure is going to be necessary to make some key stops. Obviously that's just my opinion and there is no right or wrong, but there it is.

Originally Posted by: doddpower 



So, you're saying a good pass rush is better than a good secondary? Boy, that sounds familiar, like when I've said I don't want the Packers to face the Giants because they have a really good pass rush! 🙂

You're not saying anything I haven't said already or believe, but hey thanks for lecturing me as if I wasn't already aware of it! 😛

Let's see if I can fix my error in clarity here ...

Good pass rush > Good secondary.
Nick Collins > Cullen Jenkins.


The thing is, opposing QB's are getting rid of the ball fairly quick because the middle of the field is generally available. That's not something a pass rush would do a lot to fix, but damn right a pass rush would help!

Anyone know if there's a stud pass rusher in this years draft that the Packers can nab with the 32nd pick? 🙂
UserPostedImage
Zero2Cool
12 years ago

Zero - What Dodd said is what I was trying to say.

Originally Posted by: zombieslayer 


and what I've said as well. So? 😣
UserPostedImage
zombieslayer
12 years ago

So, you're saying a good pass rush is better than a good secondary? Boy, that sounds familiar, like when I've said I don't want the Packers to face the Giants because they have a really good pass rush! 🙂

You're not saying anything I haven't said already or believe, but hey thanks for lecturing me as if I wasn't already aware of it! 😛

Let's see if I can fix my error in clarity here ...

Good pass rush > Good secondary.
Nick Collins > Cullen Jenkins.


The thing is, opposing QB's are getting rid of the ball fairly quick because the middle of the field is generally available. That's not something a pass rush would do a lot to fix, but damn right a pass rush would help!

Anyone know if there's a stud pass rusher in this years draft that the Packers can nab with the 32nd pick? :)

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



Wait. That kind of contradicts. Collins = secondary. Jenkins = pass rush.

Yet you're saying the loss of Collins > loss of Jenkins?
My man Donald Driver
UserPostedImage
(thanks to Pack93z for the pic)
2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. 🇹🇹 🇲🇲 🇦🇷
mi_keys
12 years ago

Wait. That kind of contradicts. Collins = secondary. Jenkins = pass rush.

Yet you're saying the loss of Collins > loss of Jenkins?

Originally Posted by: zombieslayer 



Collins is a better player in general than Jenkins. To use an exaggerated case it would be like saying losing Charles Woodson would be a bigger loss than losing Mike Neal. Simply because a pass rush is generally more important than coverage doesn't mean a secondary player can't be more important than a defensive lineman.

I'm pretty sure I've posted these before but we played 5 games last year without Cullen Jenkins (Minnesota, at Detroit, at New England, New York, and Chicago). Here are the defensive passing statistics on a per game basis for those five games compared to our season averages:

Without Jenkins

Comp: 16.0
Att: 31.2
Comp %: 51.3%
Yards: 192.2
TD: 1.2
Int: 2.2
QB Rating: 53.9
Points Allowed: 15.6

With Jenkins

Comp: 18.5
Att: 32.9
Comp: 56.2%
Yards: 215.0
TD: 1.0
Int: 1.5
QB Rating: 67.2
Points Allowed: 15.0


The caveat of course is that in football you don't get the large sample sizes that you can in other sports to do conclusive statistical analysis. That said, those numbers are strikingly similar and outside of Drew Stanton we played some good quarterbacks in that group. Brady was the only one to even be efficient against us and he benefited from 3 dropped picks and a 70 yard kickoff return from an offensive lineman to set up a score.

I think losing Jenkins hurts but we played significantly better last year with essentially the same personnel available for the defensive line and linebackers. Hell, Raji had 3 of his 6.5 sacks last year when Jenkins wasn't playing. Other players like Jarius Wynn and Erik Walden got on the box score with sacks in his absence. There's a lot more to this than Jenkins leaving.
Born and bred a cheesehead
DoddPower
12 years ago

So, you're saying a good pass rush is better than a good secondary? Boy, that sounds familiar, like when I've said I don't want the Packers to face the Giants because they have a really good pass rush! 🙂

You're not saying anything I haven't said already or believe, but hey thanks for lecturing me as if I wasn't already aware of it! 😛

Let's see if I can fix my error in clarity here ...

Good pass rush > Good secondary.
Nick Collins > Cullen Jenkins.


The thing is, opposing QB's are getting rid of the ball fairly quick because the middle of the field is generally available. That's not something a pass rush would do a lot to fix, but damn right a pass rush would help!

Anyone know if there's a stud pass rusher in this years draft that the Packers can nab with the 32nd pick? :)

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



I am very aware that you were aware of what I was saying, if you will. However, I was stating my opinion once more. Just because you were quoted doesn't mean I'm speaking to you directly either. In this case, I was speaking in general terms about similar arguments one sees across various message boards for every team in the league. Besides, you need some heavy lecturing more anyway. It'd be good for ya! Keep you in line!
nerdmann
12 years ago

Collins is a better player in general than Jenkins. To use an exaggerated case it would be like saying losing Charles Woodson would be a bigger loss than losing Mike Neal. Simply because a pass rush is generally more important than coverage doesn't mean a secondary player can't be more important than a defensive lineman.

I'm pretty sure I've posted these before but we played 5 games last year without Cullen Jenkins (Minnesota, at Detroit, at New England, New York, and Chicago). Here are the defensive passing statistics on a per game basis for those five games compared to our season averages:

Without Jenkins

Comp: 16.0
Att: 31.2%
Comp %: 51.3%
Yards: 192.2
TD: 1.2
Int: 2.2
QB Rating: 53.9
Points Allowed: 15.6

With Jenkins

Comp: 18.5
Att: 32.9
Comp: 56.2%
Yards: 215.0
TD: 1.0
Int: 1.5
QB Rating: 67.2
Points Allowed: 15.0


The caveat of course is that in football you don't get the large sample sizes that you can in other sports to do conclusive statistical analysis. That said, those numbers are strikingly similar and outside of Drew Stanton we played some good quarterbacks in that group. Brady was the only one to even be efficient against us and he benefited from 3 dropped picks and a 70 yard kickoff return from an offensive lineman to set up a score.

I think losing Jenkins hurts but we played significantly better last year with essentially the same personnel available for the defensive line and linebackers. Hell, Raji had 3 of his 6.5 sacks last year when Jenkins wasn't playing. Other players like Jarius Wynn and Erik Walden got on the box score with sacks in his absence. There's a lot more to this than Jenkins leaving.

Originally Posted by: mi_keys 


Those are great points Keys. Hopefully we get Collins back. I really think Burnett is gonna be elite.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
Zero2Cool
12 years ago

I am very aware that you were aware of what I was saying, if you will. However, I was stating my opinion once more. Just because you were quoted doesn't mean I'm speaking to you directly either. In this case, I was speaking in general terms about similar arguments one sees across various message boards for every team in the league.

Besides, you need some heavy lecturing more anyway. It'd be good for ya! Keep you in line!

Originally Posted by: doddpower 


A little forum etiquette. When you quote someone, it's a strong implication you are responding directly to them, it's actually why people quote them in the first place.

I agree with the last portion of your post as well! 🙂
UserPostedImage
DoddPower
12 years ago

A little forum etiquette. When you quote someone, it's a strong implication you are responding directly to them, it's actually why people quote them in the first place.

I agree with the last portion of your post as well! :)

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



I understand that, but it's also a good opportunity to respond to a general argument. That's like if someone posts something like "All non-religious people are evil and are going to hell!" While it's certainly possible to reply directly to that person, it's also an opportunity to go on a soapbox about related rhetoric. It happens all the time. But thanks for the update on forum etiquette overlord Zero. I'll be sure to take it to heart, you bet!
Zero2Cool
12 years ago
lol @ overlord ... nice. I should start using that avatar again.
UserPostedImage
Users browsing this topic
Fan Shout
Zero2Cool (2h) : Bears. Vikings. OT
Mucky Tundra (3h) : Thems the breaks I guess
Mucky Tundra (3h) : Two players out and Williams had an injury designation this week but Oladapo is a healthy scratch
Zero2Cool (3h) : Packers inactives vs 49ers: • CB Jaire Alexander • S Kitan Oladapo • LB Edgerrin Cooper • OL Jacob Monk
TheKanataThrilla (5h) : Aaron Jones with a costly red zone fumble
Zero2Cool (6h) : When we trade Malik for a 1st rounder, we'll need a new QB2.
packerfanoutwest (23-Nov) : Report: Aaron Rodgers wants to play in 2025, but not for the Jets
beast (23-Nov) : That's what I told the Police officer about my speed when he pulled me over
packerfanoutwest (23-Nov) : NFL told Bears that Packers’ blocked field goal was legal
packerfanoutwest (22-Nov) : 49ers are underdogs at Packers, ending streak of 36 straight games as favorites
Zero2Cool (22-Nov) : 49ers might be down their QB, DL, TE and LT?
packerfanoutwest (22-Nov) : Jaire Alexander says he has a torn PCL
Zero2Cool (20-Nov) : Even with the context it's ... what?
Mucky Tundra (20-Nov) : Matt LaFleur without context: “I don’t wanna pat you on the butt and you poop in my hand.”
beast (20-Nov) : We brought in a former Packers OL coach to help evaluate OL as a scout
beast (20-Nov) : Jets have been pretty good at picking DL
Zero2Cool (20-Nov) : He landed good players thanks to high draft slot. He isn't good.
Zero2Cool (20-Nov) : He can shove his knowledge up his ass. He knows nothing.
beast (20-Nov) : More knowledge, just like bring in the Jets head coach
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : What? Why? Huh?
beast (19-Nov) : I wonder if the Packers might to try to bring Douglas in through Milt Hendrickson/Ravens connections
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : The Jets fired Joe Douglas, per sources
packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : Jets are a mess......
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : Pretty sure Jets fired their scouting staff and just pluck former Packers.
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : Jets sign Anders Carlson to their 53.
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : When you cycle the weeks, the total over remains for season. But you get your W/L for that selected week. Confusing.
packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : the total and percentage are the same as the previous weeks
packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : the total and percentage are the same as the previous weeks
packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : the totals are accurate..nrvrtmind
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : I don't follow what you are saying. The totals are not the same as last week.
packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : ok so then wht are the totals the same as last week?
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : NFL Pick'em is auto updated when NFL Scores tab is clicked
Martha Careful (19-Nov) : The offense was OK. Let's not forget the Bear defense is very very good.
packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : Who updates the leaderboard on NFLPickem?
beast (19-Nov) : Has the Packers offense been worse since the former Jets coach joined the Packers?
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : Offense gets his ass in gear, this could be good.
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : Backup QB helped with three wins. Special Teams contributed to three wins.
bboystyle (18-Nov) : Lions played outside thats why. They scored 16 and 17 in the only 2 outside games this year
Zero2Cool (18-Nov) : The rest of the NFL is catching up to Packers ... kicking is an issue throughout league
packerfanoutwest (18-Nov) : Packers DL Kenny Clark: We knew 'we were going to block' Bears' game-winning field goal attempt
Zero2Cool (18-Nov) : Lions seem to be throttling everyone, but only (only) got 24 lol maybe the rain is why
Zero2Cool (18-Nov) : Packers vs Lions game doesn't seem so bad.
beast (18-Nov) : Dennis Green "They are what we thought they were, and we let them off the hook!"
Martha Careful (17-Nov) : comment of the day Z2Cool "Bears better than we want to admit. Packers worse than we think. It's facts."
Mucky Tundra (17-Nov) : my worst case scenario: Bears fix their oline and get a coach like Johnson from the Lions and his scheme
Zero2Cool (17-Nov) : Bears get OL fixed amd we might have a problem
buckeyepackfan (17-Nov) : Pretty sure they already have scouting reports on guys who aren't even starting for their college team. The future is now for me.
buckeyepackfan (17-Nov) : I tend to let Gute and Co. Worry about the future.
beast (17-Nov) : That's great news and Packers need to keep upgrading their OL, DL and DBs this off-season, so missing one guy doesn't kill them
beast (17-Nov) : That's great news and Packers need to keep upgrading their OL, DL and DBs this off-season, so missing one guy doesn't kill them
Please sign in to use Fan Shout
2024 Packers Schedule
Friday, Sep 6 @ 7:15 PM
Eagles
Sunday, Sep 15 @ 12:00 PM
COLTS
Sunday, Sep 22 @ 12:00 PM
Titans
Sunday, Sep 29 @ 12:00 PM
VIKINGS
Sunday, Oct 6 @ 3:25 PM
Rams
Sunday, Oct 13 @ 12:00 PM
CARDINALS
Sunday, Oct 20 @ 12:00 PM
TEXANS
Sunday, Oct 27 @ 12:00 PM
Jaguars
Sunday, Nov 3 @ 3:25 PM
LIONS
Sunday, Nov 17 @ 12:00 PM
Bears
Sunday, Nov 24 @ 3:25 PM
49ERS
Thursday, Nov 28 @ 7:20 PM
DOLPHINS
Thursday, Dec 5 @ 7:15 PM
Lions
Sunday, Dec 15 @ 7:20 PM
Seahawks
Monday, Dec 23 @ 7:15 PM
SAINTS
Sunday, Dec 29 @ 12:00 PM
Vikings
Saturday, Jan 4 @ 11:00 PM
BEARS
Recent Topics
4h / Green Bay Packers Talk / buckeyepackfan

6h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

23-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / dfosterf

23-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

22-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Martha Careful

21-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Martha Careful

21-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

21-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

20-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

20-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

20-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

19-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / dfosterf

19-Nov / Featured Content / Zero2Cool

19-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Martha Careful

19-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

Headlines
Copyright © 2006 - 2024 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.