Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
I just jizzed.

By the way, I am not condoning breaking the law. Just as I don't feel sorry for a college student who gets a ticket for underage drinking or smoking pot, I don't feel sorry for someone who gets caught having underage sex. You know the law; if you choose to take the risk of breaking it, that's on you.

However, I do believe the laws are unjust and need to be changed; and furthermore, I believe they will be. I believe that eventually, there will be successful legal challenges to a lot of the laws currently on the books. I'd love to see some mature teenagers who are in love with people who happen to be over the age of 18 successfully sue for the right to choose whom they want to sleep with. One of the most mature, trustworthy people I know is 17; she's so poised and self-assured that people almost always assume she's in her mid-20s (at least) when they first meet her. If the shit hit the fan, I'd put far more trust in her than most people I know who are twice her age.
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Zero2Cool
14 years ago
I know for a fact, Wisconsin does NOT have Statutory Rape, they deem those cases as Sexual Assault. And if you're a 17 yr old male and have consensual intercourse with your 15 yr old girlfriend (who documented it heavily that she wanted it even though you failed in resisting), you will be charged with a 4th degree sexual assault and either sit 9 months in jail, or serve 2 years probation.
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Cheesey
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14 years ago
NO teens are mature enough to handle it. That's fact.
Theyn are horny, and that is what motivates them.
Putting "Tab A" into "Slot B" is all they are after.
Again, they are not taught self control, or that there are consequences for your actions.
I was a horny teen, yet NEVER had ANY sexual contact with another person till i was over 18. Was it hard at times? Yes.
SELF CONTROL and MORALS.
That's what is missing in today's America.
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Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
What the fuck do morals have to do with it? Show me a single verse in the Bible that indicates it's somehow "immoral" to have sex under the age of 18. You can't find it, because it's not there. That idea is nothing more than your own personal preference, pure and simple. So what you're telling me is that a couple who gets married at 16 is immoral? My grandparents were immoral for having my father when they were 17? Was the mother of Jesus immoral for letting God impregnate her at 14?

Think before you spout off judgmental crap like this. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's immoral.

By the way, if humans aren't supposed to have sex until they're 18, then God is a fucking moron for causing them to go into puberty between the ages of 12 and 14.

Did you know that the safest time for a woman to become pregnant -- both for her and the child -- is between the ages of 16 and 22? Clearly God has no idea what he's doing, since he made it immoral to produce a healthy child.

I don't care if you think sex under the age of 18 is wrong -- everyone is entitled to his own opinion -- but to make some sort of sweeping moral judgment as though you're speaking for God is way out of line. Acknowledge it's your own personal bias/preference, and while I won't agree with it, I won't have a problem with it. Or show me a verse in the Bible that supports your stance, and I'll acknowledge my folly and change my opinion.
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Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago

Yep.. just a few have laws on the books...

"pack93z" wrote:



I was referring specifically to states that have ages of consent at 18 (Wisconsin is one of six such states). I realize in looking back at my post I wasn't specific about that.
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DakotaT
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14 years ago
I think a lot of the accepted "morality" on this issue comes from a group of men in Rome who's sole agenda was to suppress education and the rights of women.

It was easy pickins with the women in the age group of 16 to 22, but sexual education is taught by the milfs.

Physically, women should be having their children when they are young, but emotionally they aren't ready for the most part and should be in college.

Just like driving drunk, I reserve judgment on this issue, for I would be a hypocrite.

My question with the story is how did charges come about? Was it her parents that reported it to the DA, and if so and the girl loved the guy, then her suicide is on the heads of her parents.
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Pack93z
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14 years ago
If one is looking just at the science of it all, sure one could make an argument for young adults, those that are still developing to reproduce.

But the would be irresponsible, IMO, since it ignores the societal environment of this country. A young person, under 18, generally lack the means to effectively raise a child and support a family. Protect them from themselves and give them a chance to maturely plan their life a bit, a 16 years old, let alone a 14 year old have no idea of where they want to go in this thing called life.

It also ignores the real issue. full grown adults preying on the youth for a quick roll in the hay. There comes the rub, where do you drawn the line to define an adult.. in most circumstances that is 18. Hence the age structure, however the states with a relative age clause have it more correct IMO. If they are within say 4 years of each other, I think little of it.. say a 17 year old hooking up with a 21 year old. Just better not be my daughter. ;)

I sorry, if you are a 30 year drone.. you have no business praying on a young adult under 18.

Why can't we argue the drinking age.. that is easy. 😉
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Rockmolder
14 years ago

Why can't we argue the drinking age.. that is easy. ;)

"pack93z" wrote:



Exactly.

I laugh at you Yanks and your drinking age.
DakotaT
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14 years ago

It also ignores the real issue. full grown adults preying on the youth for a quick roll in the hay. There comes the rub, where do you drawn the line to define an adult.. in most circumstances that is 18. Hence the age structure, however the states with a relative age clause have it more correct IMO. If they are within say 4 years of each other, I think little of it.. say a 17 year old hooking up with a 21 year old. Just better not be my daughter. ;)

I sorry, if you are a 30 year drone.. you have no business praying on a young adult under 18.

"pack93z" wrote:



How did we get to the creepy 30 year old combing the high schools? Why should an 18 year old guy be charged with raping his younger girlfriend? His girlfriend is probably more mature than he is. I'm with Non on this issue but not with the Chmura issue.
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Zero2Cool
14 years ago
30 year old? I thought the male was 18? How do we a 30 year old in this discussion?
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Pack93z
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14 years ago
I used an outside the bounds as why there should be laws upon the books.. opposing Non's view that the laws should be abolished or removed. The thread has transitioned into a debate about the laws, little on the OP, at least in my interpretation.

Point was, unclear I guess, that we have to have some sort of law preventing anyone say above a couple years older to start hooking up with teenagers. I should have quoted the point better.

However, I do believe the laws are unjust and need to be changed; and furthermore, I believe they will be. I believe that eventually, there will be successful legal challenges to a lot of the laws currently on the books

"NonStop" wrote:


"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Pack93z
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14 years ago

It also ignores the real issue. full grown adults preying on the youth for a quick roll in the hay. There comes the rub, where do you drawn the line to define an adult.. in most circumstances that is 18. Hence the age structure, however the states with a relative age clause have it more correct IMO. If they are within say 4 years of each other, I think little of it.. say a 17 year old hooking up with a 21 year old. Just better not be my daughter. ;)

I sorry, if you are a 30 year drone.. you have no business praying on a young adult under 18.

"DakotaT" wrote:



How did we get to the creepy 30 year old combing the high schools? Why should an 18 year old guy be charged with raping his younger girlfriend? His girlfriend is probably more mature than he is. I'm with Non on this issue but not with the Chmura issue.

"pack93z" wrote:



My point was not to remove the law from the books, but modify them following some sort of age guideline, say if the girl/boy is under 18, you can't be further than X years older than them.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Zero2Cool
14 years ago
In Wisconsin it goes ...
14 can not consent to anyone
15 can consent to a partner of age 19
16 can consent to a partner of age 20
17 is considered an adult in the laws eyes


That's what I read in the statutes in '01. I'm not sure if it's true now or not, but its how I got my case reduced.
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Pack93z
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14 years ago
Current as 07'... nothing referring to the bracketing that you mention. 2003 document didn't have it either.. wonder when it changed or if they use another state case to determine a plea down.


http://www.sexlaws.org/files/WisStat0948.pdf 

948.02 Sexual assault of a child. (1) FIRST DEGREE
SEXUAL ASSAULT. Whoever has sexual contact or sexual intercourse
with a person who has not attained the age of 13 years is
guilty of one of the following:
(a) If the sexual contact or sexual intercourse resulted in great
bodily harm to the person, a Class A felony.
(b) If the sexual contact or sexual intercourse did not result in
great bodily harm to the person, a Class B felony.
NOTE: Sub. (1) is affected by 2005 Wis. Acts 430 and 437. The 2 treatments
are mutually inconsistent. Sub. (1) is shown as affected by the last enacted act,
2005 Wis. Act 437. As affected by 2005 Wis. Act 430, it reads:
(1)FIRST DEGREE SEXUAL ASSAULT (a) In this subsection, sexual intercourse
means vulvar penetration as well as cunnilingus, fellatio, or anal intercourse
between persons or any intrusion of any inanimate object into the genital or anal
opening either by the defendant or upon the defendants instruction. The emission
of semen is not required.
(b) Whoever has sexual intercourse with a person who has not attained the
age of 12 years is guilty of a Class B felony.
(c) Whoever has sexual intercourse with a person who has not attained the
age of 16 years by use or threat of force or violence is guilty of a Class B felony.
(d) Whoever has sexual contact with a person who has not attained the age
of 16 years by use or threat of force or violence is guilty of a Class B felony if the
actor is at least 18 years of age when the sexual contact occurs.
(e) Whoever has sexual contact with a person who has not attained the age
of 13 years is guilty of a Class B felony.
(2) SECOND DEGREE SEXUAL ASSAULT. Whoever has sexual
contact or sexual intercourse with a person who has not attained
the age of 16 years is guilty of a Class C felony.
(3) FAILURE TO ACT. A person responsible for the welfare of
a child who has not attained the age of 16 years is guilty of a Class
F felony if that person has knowledge that another person intends
to have, is having or has had sexual intercourse or sexual contact
with the child, is physically and emotionally capable of taking
action which will prevent the intercourse or contact from taking
place or being repeated, fails to take that action and the failure to
act exposes the child to an unreasonable risk that intercourse or
contact may occur between the child and the other person or facilitates
the intercourse or contact that does occur between the child
and the other person.
(4) MARRIAGE NOT A BAR TO PROSECUTION. A defendant shall
not be presumed to be incapable of violating this section because
of marriage to the complainant.
(5) DEATH OF VICTIM. This section applies whether a victim is
dead or alive at the time of the sexual contact or sexual intercourse.

History: 1987 a. 332; 1989 a. 31; 1995 a. 14, 69; 2001 a. 109; 2005 a. 430, 437.
Relevant evidence in child sexual assault cases is discussed. In Interest of Michael
R.B. 175 Wis. 2d 713, 499 N.W.2d 641 (1993).
Limits relating to expert testimony regarding child sex abuse victims is discussed.
State v. Hernandez, 192 Wis. 2d 251, 531 N.W.2d 348 (Ct. App. 1995).
The criminalization, under sub. (2), of consensual sexual relations with a child
does not violate the defendants constitutionally protected privacy rights. State v.
Fisher, 211 Wis. 2d 665, 565 N.W.2d 565 (Ct. App. 1997), 961764.
Second degree sexual assault under sub. (2) is a lesser included offense of first
degree sexual assault under sub. (1). State v. Moua, 215 Wis. 2d 510, 573 N.W.2d
210 (Ct. App. 1997).
For a guilty plea to a sexual assault charge to be knowingly made, a defendant need
not be informed of the potential of being required to register as a convicted sex
offender under s. 301.45 or that failure to register could result in imprisonment, as the
commitment is a collateral, not direct, consequence of the plea. State v. Bollig, 2000
WI 6, 232 Wis. 2d 561, 605 N.W.2d 199, 982196.
Expert evidence of sexual immaturity is relevant to a preadolescents affirmative
defense that he or she is not capable of having sexual contact with the purpose of
becoming sexually aroused or gratified. State v. Stephen T. 2002 WI App 3, 250 Wis.
2d 26, 643 N.W.2d 151, 003045.
That the intended victim was actually an adult was not a bar to bringing the charge
of attempted 2nd degree sexual assault of a child. The fictitiousness of the victim is
an extraneous factor beyond the defendants control within the meaning of the
attempt statute. State v. Grimm, 2002 WI App 242, 258 Wis. 2d 166, 653 N.W.2d 284,
010138.
Section 939.22 (19) includes female and male breasts as each is the breast of a
human being. The touching of a boys breast constitutes sexual contact under sub.
(2). State v. Forster, 2003 WI App 29, 260 Wis. 2d 149, 659 N.W.2d 144, 020602.
Sub. (2), in conjunction with ss. 939.23 and 939.43 (2), precludes a defense predicated
on a childs intentional age misrepresentation. The statutes do not violate an
accuseds rights under the 14th amendment to the U. S. Constitution. State v.
Jadowski 2004 WI 68, 272 Wis. 2d 418, 680 N.W.2d 418, 031493.
The consent of the child in a sub. (2) violation is not relevant. Yet if the defendant
asserts that she did not consent to the intercourse and that she was raped by the child,
the issue of her consent becomes paramount. If the defendant was raped, the act of
having sexual intercourse with a child does not constitute a crime. State v. Lackershire,
2007 WI 74, ___ Wis. 2d ___, 734 N.W.2d 23, 051189.
The constitutionality of this statute is upheld. Sweeney v. Smith, 9 F. Supp. 2d 1026
(1998).
Statutory Rape in Wisconsin: History, Rationale, and the Need for Reform. Olszewski.
89 MLR 693 (2005)
.


"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
zombieslayer
14 years ago

if humans aren't supposed to have sex until they're 18, then God is a fucking moron for causing them to go into puberty between the ages of 12 and 14.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



+1 for this.

If your child is not mentally and emotionally ready for sex when they hit puberty, you as a parent are a FAILURE.

Their body is ready. They are biologically ready. How come they're not mentally and emotionally ready? I'll tell you why. It's because parents are idiots.

EDIT - by the way, contraceptives if used correctly work. Pill + condom. It's much more dangerous for kids to drive than it is for them to have sex if they're properly prepared.
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Porforis
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14 years ago

In Wisconsin it goes ...
14 can not consent to anyone
15 can consent to a partner of age 19
16 can consent to a partner of age 20
17 is considered an adult in the laws eyes


That's what I read in the statutes in '01. I'm not sure if it's true now or not, but its how I got my case reduced.

"Zero2Cool" wrote:



I'd have to agree with those laws. As shitty and unaccommodating to exceptions as laws can be sometimes.
4PackGirl
14 years ago

if humans aren't supposed to have sex until they're 18, then God is a fucking moron for causing them to go into puberty between the ages of 12 and 14.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



+1 for this.

If your child is not mentally and emotionally ready for sex when they hit puberty, you as a parent are a FAILURE.

Their body is ready. They are biologically ready. How come they're not mentally and emotionally ready? I'll tell you why. It's because parents are idiots.

EDIT - by the way, contraceptives if used correctly work. Pill + condom. It's much more dangerous for kids to drive than it is for them to have sex if they're properly prepared.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



sorry zombie but i'm callin bullshit on this one. my parents talked to me about sex, were very strong in their morals, & told me to wait. but i didn't. it had NOTHING to do with their parenting skills. i'm a headstrong female - now it's a good thing - when i was a teen, not so much.
Porforis
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14 years ago

if humans aren't supposed to have sex until they're 18, then God is a fucking moron for causing them to go into puberty between the ages of 12 and 14.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



+1 for this.

If your child is not mentally and emotionally ready for sex when they hit puberty, you as a parent are a FAILURE.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



I'm really not sure how to address the assertion that a 12 year old will typically be emotionally and mentally ready to have sex, and most importantly, be able to make responsible decisions about who/when. And it always being the fault of the parent if they're not.

That second part is exactly why these laws are in place, operating under the idea that someone that is 12, 14 cannot be expected to have the mental maturity to make major decisions about their body. Let's look at this a different way.

Should a 12 year old be able to refuse treatment for a disease without parental consent? What if the parent wants the child treated and the child doesn't want to be treated?

Should a 12 year old be able to sign a legally binding contract for something major like a loan?

I'm not sure what else to tell you if you say yes to the above two, or start blaming the parents again. Children are quite a bit more easily manipulated than adults, fact. Just like a major contractual obligation or treatment for a medical condition, deciding to have sex has definite consequences.

As a parent, are you going to be sure that your 12 year old understands that before they have sex with someone, they should have that person be tested for STDs and provide the resultes?
Porforis
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14 years ago

sorry zombie but i'm callin bullshit on this one. my parents talked to me about sex, were very strong in their morals, & told me to wait. but i didn't. it had NOTHING to do with their parenting skills. i'm a headstrong female - now it's a good thing - when i was a teen, not so much.

"4PackGirl" wrote:



I'm guessing that you'll be told that you're erroneously focusing on morals and the concept of waiting. I accept that it's a difference in opinion and upbringing that leads us to differences on what we consider to be acceptable sexual activity. My ideas of morals and acceptable behavior differ from others', it's not a matter of me being right and them wrong or vice versa... Nobody needs to be wrong here.

However, the point I'm still not seeing people address that you bring up is the teen part. You can't blame parents for everything, sometimes teens will do stupid things even if you're the perfect parent. Blaming everything on parenting so absolutely takes away all responsibility from the teen. If you're going to do that, why not argue that parental consent should be required for underage sex?
DakotaT
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14 years ago


sorry zombie but i'm callin bullshit on this one. my parents talked to me about sex, were very strong in their morals, & told me to wait. but i didn't. it had NOTHING to do with their parenting skills. i'm a headstrong female - now it's a good thing - when i was a teen, not so much.

"4PackGirl" wrote:



The possibilities for a response to this are endless. All I know is that I should have travelled through Iowa as a teenager.
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