Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
I listened to a debate about this issue on WPR the other day and from the sounds of it, this building is going to be the functional equivalent of a YMCA (which, I might add, stands for Young Men's Christian Association) and will, like the Y, allow people of all faiths to use the facility.

If this building is in poor taste because it will have a prayer room, then the prayer rooms should be removed from public buildings throughout this country: hospitals, airports, etc.

This isn't a mosque. It's a community center with a chapel for Muslims to pray in.
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4PackGirl
14 years ago
i agree, wade. i'm not here to call anyone a bigot. some people 'buy' into things differently than i do. i know absolutely NOTHING about the religion being bashed about here & i submit that the vast majority of the rest of you don't know much about it either. those who have knowledge of it, i commend you.
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
I wish more Christians would read the Qur'an. Reading it has helped me understand -- and in fact, cherish -- the Bible more. I'm actually more solid in my Christian faith now than I was before I read the Qur'an, because I have a better understanding of the cultural milieu in which the Bible was written, and I no longer feel the compulsion to subject the Bible to Western, Greco-Roman standards of literality and scholarship.

The Qur'an has some interesting things to say. Its version of the story about Joseph and Potiphar's wife, for example, is positively hilarious and true to life.
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doddpower
14 years ago
LOL!! Pack_Fin that was hilarious. My god, if I didn't know any better, I would be TERRIFIED!!! I better go buy as many guns and as much ammo as I possibly can as quickly as I can . . .
zombieslayer
14 years ago


why is it ok that there's a strip club & otb near ground zero but it's not ok for a religious community center to be near there?

"4PackGirl" wrote:



I'd much rather have a strip club than a religious center (any religion) anywhere. Religious centers tend to be boring. Strip clubs are fun (when someone else is paying).

NSD does make a good point about culture vs religion. OK, my bad. I was thinking of things like veils and female circumcision and realized from a historical perspective, NSD is right. They predated Islam and it's coincidental that those cultures ended up Islamic.

So I'll withdraw that argument, especially that several Islamic countries have had female heads of state whereas America never has (and if Tipper Gore or Nancy Pelosi is the first, I'd be tempted to move elsewhere).

If you really want me to stay on topic, I already said how I feel. The Bill of Rights shouldn't be compromised in ANY of the 10. That includes the 2nd Amendment you stupid liberals and that also includes the 1st Amendment you stupid conservatives.

There, better? I stayed on topic this time. :whipitgood:
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Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
George Carlin once asked why the only people who are against abortion are the kind you wouldn't want to fuck in the first place.

I do think it's interesting how hideous some of the faces are at Fox News. ;)

Speaking of veils, I love it when Christians jump on this issue, considering Paul himself commanded that women be covered, but how many Christian women actually cover their heads, and how many Christian men ensure that their women do so? The sects that do so are marginalized by mainstream Christianity.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her headit is just as though her head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.

In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practicenor do the churches of God. (1 Corinthians 11:3-16)

"Saint Paul" wrote:



See what I mean? Not so far from Islam after all.
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Rockmolder
14 years ago

Someone mentioned Fox News?

[youtube]35eRxxZ-Ar0[/youtube]

"Packers_Finland" wrote:



Dear lord, they're throwing facism and socialism around like they're going out of style tomorrow.

This is how Hitler's regime started? What's he doing? Improving infrastructure too much?

"Obama was only elected by black racist and white guilty people." That was a pretty good one, as well.
Cheesey
14 years ago
Some of what i read is sadly laughable.
Muslims treat their women like QUEENS?
Uh.....yeah.....SURE they do.
The ones i have seen treat them as PROPERTY. And if they don't do EXACTLY as their "husband" says, they.....well....wait a second.....maybe they ARE treated like queens. After all, they will get CROWNED.
I guess the rape/torture chambers run by Saddam and his sons were really just "throwns" for their "queens", hey?
What happens if a women DARES to show her face in Muslim countries?
Yeah.....queens.
It's funny how the same people that blast me for my religious beliefs will run to "protect" the Muslim religion.
But I'm the "bigot". Oh....thats right.......it doesn't count if you are Christian.

And yes, if priests are raping/molesting children they SHOULD be treated as the pigs they are, and not hide behind "religion". I guess that's where i differ from some on here. I hold people accountable, no matter WHAT their religion is.
Being as i think priest child molestors AND ANY church that protects them should be prosecuted and held 100% accountable for what they have done.....does that also make me a "bigot?"
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Rockmolder
14 years ago

Some of what i read is sadly laughable.
Muslims treat their women like QUEENS?
Uh.....yeah.....SURE they do.
The ones i have seen treat them as PROPERTY. And if they don't do EXACTLY as their "husband" says, they.....well....wait a second.....maybe they ARE treated like queens. After all, they will get CROWNED.
I guess the rape/torture chambers run by Saddam and his sons were really just "throwns" for their "queens", hey?
What happens if a women DARES to show her face in Muslim countries?
Yeah.....queens.
It's funny how the same people that blast me for my religious beliefs will run to "protect" the Muslim religion.
But I'm the "bigot". Oh....thats right.......it doesn't count if you are Christian.

And yes, if priests are raping/molesting children they SHOULD be treated as the pigs they are, and not hide behind "religion". I guess that's where i differ from some on here. I hold people accountable, no matter WHAT their religion is.
Being as i think priest child molestors AND ANY church that protects them should be prosecuted and held 100% accountable for what they have done.....does that also make me a "bigot?"

"Cheesey" wrote:



So do you not see the contrast between what you say in your first paragraph and your second?

In your first, you say that every Muslim does the same thing.

In the second, you say that Christians who do this despicable things shouldn't be able to hide behind their religion.

Do you not think that this rings true for terrorists?
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
Ah, yes, I knew someone would bring the idea that Muslim women are men's property. Detractors of other religions and cultures are so predictable. This is a common charge leveled disdainfully at past cultures as well -- as some sort of proof that women must have been oppressed in those days.

The truth is that yes, indeed, under the strictest letter of the law, women are men's property in many cultures and were so also in the past. But is that really such an alien concept in our culture? Even here in the United States, under the law, children are very literally their parents' property. As a parent, I can do essentially anything I want (within reason) to my children. As long as I do not cause them any physical or emotional harm, I can be as arbitrary or unreasonable as I like . . . and so can all of you. Does that mean all -- or even most -- American children are oppressed? Of course not; the idea is laughable.

One can never get a good idea of how a culture operates by looking at its laws alone. One must always take the human element, which by and large is fairly universal, into consideration. There are thousands of laws in the United States that impose penalties -- many rather draconian in nature -- for various offenses. How often are these laws enforced to the strictest letter of the law? Rarely. Our judicial system takes into consideration mitigating factors. So it is around the world. Yes, our media seizes on the worst and most spectacular cases, because that is what gets ratings. They do the same thing here: they only report on the very worst of cases.

The Bible teaches that the man is the head of the household. Does this mean that the man rules the home? No, it means that no matter what happens in that household, good or bad, the man bears ultimate responsibility. So it is in cultures in which women are technically men's property. That doesn't mean men can do as they please with women; it means men bear ultimate responsibility for the health, welfare, safety, and behavior of their women.

Do some men abuse this authority? Of course. When I was in Germany, I saw a Turkish man slap his woman in the face on the street in full view of everyone. Though I was furious with him, did I draw the conclusion that all Turks abuse women? No, I simply realized that some Turkish men are assholes toward women. My father is supposedly a devout Christian and an upstanding citizen, but he's beaten my mother on many an occasion. Does that mean that Christianity condones the abuse of women or that most Christian men abuse women? No, it means that there are assholes like my father who fail to live up to the standards of their religion.

Let me remind you that the United States has some of the highest rape, sexual assault, murder-of-women rates in the world. Before we go trying to pluck the specks from other cultures' eyes, maybe we should plug the logs out of our own eyes.

Cheesey, have you ever been outside the United States? Have you seen the world? Have you seen how people in other countries -- not just displaced minorities in bad socioeconomic conditions -- live on a day-to-day basis?

I have. I've watched married couples interact in places like Iraq and Qatar. I've seen the adoration shining in husbands' and wives' eyes as they walk down the streets hand in hand. I've seen the tender way they care for their children. I've seen men collapse in solitary confinement, begging to be able just to hold the pictures of their wives and children. I've watched the panic in parents' eyes when their children experienced injuries we might consider laughably minor in this country. I've also seen victims -- women, children, and men alike -- of abuse so vile I wanted to kill the perpetrators.

But I've seen that in my own country too.

I would say that the average married couple I saw in the Middle East was far deeper in love and showed far more respect for each other than the average couple I see on a daily basis in the United States or saw in Germany. Of course there were exceptions; there are everywhere. But women there seemed to genuinely adore their men.

I must say that it's more than a little misogynistic of you to simply dismiss out of hand the reports of Middle Eastern women themselves, simply because you happen to think they don't know what they're talking about. Who are you to tell them what is and is not oppression? You should read the book Princess: A True Story of Life Behind the Veil by Jean Sasson, which relates the first-person account of a real Saudi princess. Yes, the story isn't all pretty, but neither is it as gritty as you seem to think.

A woman once told me that "patriarchy was invented by women to get men out of the house." From what I've seen of patriarchal cultures, I think she's right. No matter what our feminist-driven media may tell you (and yes, most conservative women are bitter feminists who are deeply resentful of men), women run patriarchal cultures.
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