Yes, he has VERY interesting hobbies. lol

And I love how insecure a lot guys are to homosexuality.. Or even just acting feminist. I have a few friends that were/are pretty damn homophobic (and I mean that in a very serious way.. Not a knee jerk reactionary barb) and I LOVE to act like I am gay.. even to the point of rubbing up their thighs and up against them.. They squirm like a girl that has a spider on their arm. It's REALLY amusing.

Yet, because I disagree with that lifestyle I get called a homophobe. Explain this to me. 😃

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Here's an interesting trivia question for you Bible-believing Christians: Who is the only person David is ever described as loving?

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Bathsheba? Or God.. Does God count as a person?

EDIT: Jonathan. King David is quoted as saying one of the quotes that Shawn posts, "I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me; THY LOVE TO ME WAS WONDERFUL, PASSING THE LOVE OF WOMEN."

News flash.. A man can love another man in ways he can't love a woman.. but that does not mean he is homosexual.

Psalms 133 also mentions in it's first verse "Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!" I honestly think both of those scriptures make a great statement on how having a fellowship of 'brethren', rather than anything being homosexual, is important in the lifes of Christians.

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To your news flash.. of course.. but the point is the translation is vague at best and contradicting. Which is exactly why I take offense to thumping people openly with verse and condemning them.. we as human don't have an open channel to God himself to ask "exactly" what was meant and was interperted by man.

Why do we.. as human feel the need to pass judgment upon an equal based on our potentially biased understanding of God's word?

Based upon Christian faith.. every human has their judgment day.. and that day is not of human judgment.. yet we feel the need to judge here on earth.

The tools (bible/good book/word of Lord) are available for each human.. they are readily available in all faiths and languages.. open for each to read, understand and make their choices upon.. I fail to see why we feel the need to judge.

Telling someone they are wrong based on the gray vague and contradicted passages in the bible seems to me as the wrong act.

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Patton, right?

I'm gonna spend some time reading through this whole thread, but before I do I'll just share one quote that I keep thinking of when reading the title of this thread, and that is, "There are no atheists in foxholes". I'm not sure what to make of homosexuals in the military.

In fact, I'll be quite interested if there were statistics on religious homosexuals, and whether they believed that homosexuality is wrong within their religion.

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When I read the Bible, am I to read it as (a) words for me to live by or (b) words for thee to live by.

The problem comes, ISTM, when I try to move from (a) to (b).

Take the bit about the "contradictions." Anyone who has spent serious time with the Bible has had this experience. Finding one passage that seems to say X while another passage says not-X.

My sense is this happens most frequenly as we try to reconcile Old and New Testaments, but that could just be me. And certainly one need not bring both Old and New together if allyou aredoing is seeking a contradiction to complain about.

However, I would think less of the Bible if I never encountered those apparent contradictions.

When I find acontradiction I take that as a place where I need to be thinking more deeply. Where *I* need to be trying to untangle and resolve my understanding. That I must not get distracted by what I know, and istead focus more carefuly on reducing my own ignorance.

That iis what I should do. What I have done, all too often, however, is one of two things. Either I treat the apparent contradiction as an actual one, reject the Bible's authority, and make let my understanding be shaped by other criteria and other sources. Or I ignore the apparent contradiction and simply accept whichever Bibleical "interpretation" that best fits my pre-existing beliefs.

What I should do when I see an apparent contradiction in the Bible is see it as a message to me that I need to be listening harder to God. Not listening more to myself.

For me, I have no need to figure out what the Bible says on homosexuality because I have never been tempted in that direction in any way. I do need to figure out what the Bible says on toleration because I have been tempted to both tolerance and intolerance. I do need to figure out what the Bible says on idolatry because I regularly find myself tempted in that direction (see, e.g., Jessica Biel).

I may tell people I think they need to read the Bible more, but I try very hard not to tell them what to read in the Bible, much less how to read it or which translation to read or any of that. To my mind, the reason they need to read the Bible more is that they need to deepen their personal relationship with God, that they need to listen more for what God is telling them in that relationship.

Not because I think they are sinners by committing specific actions. Not because I think their actions are sins.

I do think they are sinners. Of course. I think we are ALL sinners. But it isn't my job to categorize their sins or point out specific sins or decry specific sinful acts. Insofar as I have a duty to my fellow man it is to show myself in relationship with God and to find ways to help people get in relationship with Him so that He can instruct them. *I* am not a teacher on questions of sin. I'm just a student, a fellow traveller.

Quoting Scripture can be dangerous. To me, one should strive to limit how one quotes scripture. Quote it to articulate my own belief, sure: frankly, I can't say some things I believe as well as Solomon or Matthew or Paul did. Quote it to highlight the specifics of my attempts to listen to God's guidance for me -- that, too, absolutely.

But quoting it as evidence of how other's are supposed to listen, of how others are supposed to specifically shape their own personal relationships with God? That's much more problematic, it seems to me.

Especially if one believes, as I do, in the new covenant of Jesus Christ as Savior. Did I not believe that Gospel rules, did I believe that the Law of God was the law of Moses, it might be different. But I don't believe that way.

I'm a Lutheran, so I believe in the priesthood of all believers. Ordained or not, I am a priest. But I am a priest whose only message is the Good News. I am not a priest of Moses. The obedience of others to the law is not my job; my job is to help them have faith in Him.

This I believe.

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Wait, is this topic about Rourke?

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I find it really interesting that we (myself included) pushed this conversation so quickly from homosexuals in the military to the sin of homosexuality in the Bible.

As I see it, the military isn't exactly the place to make decisions based on ethics, morality, or religion. It's there to get shit done, often times things that nobody in their right mind would willingly want to do, and the brave people in the military act on their orders because of duty and because it works.

The issue of homosexuality is a lightning rod. The military isn't the best battlefield for the pro-gay/anti-gay war. I believe that we as a people need to educate ourselves about the REALITY of homosexuality, but when it comes to the military, they should be practical and simply do what keeps the gears greased and the machine working.

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Very similar to the belief I hold.. albeit I do not actively push the bible upon anyone.. they know my beliefs, they know my stance, they are free to ask. And if they don't know those things about me, they don't really know me, making it is far from my place to "push" my thoughts upon them with regards to their faith.

My children are the only ones I actively teach, mentor and lead... unless asked to do so by another.

As pissed as I was about the Catholic father "outing" my childhood friend being betrayed and persecuted in class.. I wish I could thank him today.. it grew me as a person to explore faith deeper and alternate faiths as well... albeit the ridicule I suffered at the time from my family for getting the boot from class. It grew, I will call her Jane, as well..

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Amazing how fast that happens.. lol.

When you try to justify why someone shouldn't be in the military with a bible verse.. it opens the Pandora's box wide and nails the flaps to the floor. One in which our military itself becomes open season according to the bible and the contradictions there within.

I personally never was in the military.. so I can't speak by example to the culture... but I have been in locker rooms with just as little separation of any personal privacy.. and it mattered not the orientation of another.. unless they acted upon their possible attractions. Unwanted or unwelcome advances would have to be dealt with accordingly..

I fail to understand the issue with it.. I as a heterosexual male have attended gentleman's clubs in my youth.. been attracted to the talent and felt no urge to act upon that attraction.. I would guess it may be the same in nature in the locker room.

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