Formo
  • Formo
  • Veteran Member Topic Starter
14 years ago
NOTE: I quoted Non from one of the Favre threads and started a new one here as to not be pulling the discussion off topic.

Speaking of coming out, one of the lieutenants in my unit apparently came out (verbally) at some point in our two-week training exercise this month. The resultant shitstorm that is brewing overhead does not bode well for him. Don't-ask-don't-tell, while on its way out, has not been repealed yet.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



I know it's off topic.. but I never understood why some people feel that the Don't-Ask-Don't-Tell is so horribly wrong. I get how homosexuals in the military aren't treated right, blah blah blah.. my question is.. If that's the case.. Why in the HELL would a gay person, feel the urge to 'come out' while serving?? Especially knowing the history of gays in the military?

My opinion? They are masochist attention whores who love said shitstorms.
UserPostedImage
Thanks to TheViking88 for the sig!!
dfosterf
14 years ago
I have seen it all on this one.

I cannot speak for the Army, Air Force, etc.

I cannot even speak for 90% of the Marine Corps.

I CAN speak for the line.

If you are gay (not that I have any problem with it whatsoever)

Be advised.

Do NOT go onto the line of the Marines.

My tolerance was in the minority of 1.

Not 1%....

Just me, essentially. In a world where EVERY Navy Corpsman was assumed to be gay and totally embraced by everyone. Really.

I wish that were funny, but everyone had guns and explosives, and they got "rules" and basically all " other " rules do not apply within the context of their "important" ones. Believe me.
Formo
  • Formo
  • Veteran Member Topic Starter
14 years ago
Yeah.. as unfortunate as that is.. I still don't understand why a guy guy would feel the urge to come out. Come out with your family.. come out with your friends.. That's fine. But seriously in the military?! You deserve whatever shit you are going to get.
UserPostedImage
Thanks to TheViking88 for the sig!!
dfosterf
14 years ago

Yeah.. as unfortunate as that is.. I still don't understand why a guy guy would feel the urge to come out. Come out with your family.. come out with your friends.. That's fine. But seriously in the military?! You deserve whatever shit you are going to get.

"Formo" wrote:



No they don't, Jeremy

It's a mob mentality, of which I speak.

Every single one of them could have dealt with it on an individual basis, and would have... (not the gay guy, the guys that "hate" 'em)

Too macho

Too stupid

Priorities in the wrong place

NOT insecure, or homophobic-- It is weird like that--"they" don't like "anyone".. If you are African American (on the line) you are the "n" word.. WHITE- "cracker, stupid cracker, AND a white "n"--this is nifused in the normal conversation of everyone... we all have guns, lol

Just a displaced sense of "pride".

Like a weird "last bastion" of traditionalism, or something...

Unfortunately, at least as late as 2004, pretty fairly deadly for those that opted to challenge that perception.

My guess would be that the situation has exponentially improved since then, but I'm not the gay guy that would be literally betting his life on that one, which is extremely scary when you consider that "every Marine is a rifleman" and you are VERY subject to finding yourself in a line unit at some point, dependent upon where you are and some pure luck (or lack thereof)

Bottom line---semi-pun intended-- Everyone there perceives themselves as what you would call through your history lessons as an oppressed black man. White, black, hispanic, multinational... You are on the line, baby...

No room for fags, PC, whatever...we are going baser instincts here...

Sorry for the terminology, but that's how they roll. I was as PC as is possible while trying to illuminate-
Zero2Cool
14 years ago
My opinion, if their good enough to die for our freedom, they are sure as hell good enough to fight for it in any service they chose. That goes for Men, Women, White, Black, Straight, Gay, whomever/whatever.

I'm not IN the military, so I can't really say anything about it. I respect and appreciate all of who go into the service with no prejudice.
UserPostedImage
dfosterf
14 years ago

My opinion, if their good enough to die for our freedom, they are sure as hell good enough to fight for it in any service they chose. That goes for Men, Women, White, Black, Straight, Gay, whomever/whatever.

I'm not IN the military, so I can't really say anything about it. I respect and appreciate all of who go into the service with no prejudice.

"Zero2Cool" wrote:



I agree 1000% Kev---

I am just trying to explain why there is a potential "problem" that may not be so readily evident on "paper".

...And the last line of "resistance", coupled withe the (far more important)
Army "line" units... They roll (as close as doggies can-editorialing, here lol)

...just like we do---

Seriously, they do. I love those guys too. They do not play, just like I did not.

It's a "line' thing, sorry...and I DID speak for the Army...the guys I know would have no problem with that one, but I'll be quiet about the rest....

I always HATE trying to explain this--people confuse my perceptions with reality and my warnings as a vet...you get some insight with Non's irreverence and my total disregard for your opinions (on the surface) It's a bitch to explain in this (again) PC world .

Non was not in my world, but he at least could bridge the gap, as he knows somewhat how they roll and why. It's an attempt.
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago
I think I get your point, Foster. That sometimes that "mob mentality" is much closer to the surface than those "outside" really know.

I would never presume to tell the "line" how to approach their issues. I've studied just enough military history that there's far too much in that life I'm appallingly ignorant of.

It's more than that, though, since just being ignorant by itself has never stopped me from opining. But it's what I'm ignorant of. Its the shared mentality, bad and good both, that makes the your Corps a "corps," rather than just a bunch of strangers holding guns that happen to be in the same location at a given moment.

This is why I think so many of us are so off when we presume that just by changing the rules from outside, we can solve the problem.

Look, I think there is no biological or physical reason why gender or sex should make a difiference in combat. To my mind, combat success has some basic physical fitness requirements (I'd flunk) and some not-so-basic mental fitness requirements (I expect I'd flunk here, too). I do not claim to know what those requirements are, but my gut feeling -- and, if there's one thing I got, it's a damn big gut -- is that it has nothing to do with whether you have big dangly bits, small dangly bits, or no dangly bits at all (Zhang He was a eunuch, for exampl). And that it has nothing to do with who you want to use said dangly bits with.

And part of the reason my gut takes me that way is my perception that Foster feels similarly. (Right?)

But this issue isn't just a matter of deciding rational reason to exclude a lieutenant from serving just because he's gay or just because he goes public with his gayness (though, from what I've read and heard, there might be a reason because he's a lieutenant 🙂 ).

Communities are not wholly rational machines. They aren't fancy-schmancy Swiss clock mechanisms. They are a complex set of shared attitudes and beliefs. And every community has certain buttons that can give rise to "unthinking" mob-type actions. When Foster, who's been there and done that, and whose opinion on "what drives line Marines" I respect a great deal, says that this is one of those places, regardless of whether he'd like it otherwise or not, I listen.

That doesn't make the mob right, of course. But when those kinds of actions are involved, finding a solution takes much more than being right.

I'm not arguing for "don't ask, don't tell". And I'm not arguing against it. What I'm saying is if Foster is reading the "community of line-Marinedom correctly -- and I'm not going to claim I know enough to say he isn't -- is that getting the Marines to change doesn't have a simple political solution.

That change is going to have to figure out how to deal with, re-shape, change, that "mob mentality" part of the community.

It can be done. American mobs today don't have exactly the same trigger that French mobs had back in 1789. The mob mentality of a group of conscripts or peasants is going to be different than the mob mentality of a group of volunteers. The mob mentality that led to the original Tea Party is different than the mob mentality that led the Senate to pass the Patriot Act by a virtually unanimous vote. Mob mentalities evolve and change, just like any other historical process.

But to actually change what drives a mob -- I have no clue how to do that. Especially when it comes to a community I'm not and never have been a member of.

I might have some suggestions as how to change the mob within, say, the academic community. But change the mob within the Marines. No fucking clue.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Cheesey
14 years ago
Here is why: They want to be accepted as "normal". That's why they are coming out in all jobs.
Anyone with a different lifestyle does that. They all want to be accepted as "normal". Even the men that "love" boys thinks it's "normal" and they want to be accepted.
I don't hate gays. I think what they are doing is wrong. It's sin (according to the Bible) and shouldn't be accepted as "normal".
I have gay friends. They know where i stand, and why.

There are gay guys that are more "macho" then i am, and could beat the crap out of me.
Someone i know was in the Marines. While standing at a urinal, the guy next to him said "There's 2 things i like to do, suck d**k, and kick ass. You have a choice." Then proceded to kick the you-know-what out of the guy i know. (He wouldn't do the other thing for the guy)
UserPostedImage
14 years ago
Actually, the Bible really only mentions the physical act of gay sex a few times. It never discusses the lifestyle of homosexuality or attraction to the same sex.

Anyway, theoretically I completely support their right to come out or not come out. Practically speaking, it just seems like it would be a huge shit storm (as has been mentioned in this thread already). It isn't their problem, it's the rest of the people who would react horribly to it that are the problem. But that problem isn't going away any time soon. Hatred towards gays is still very prevalent in our society. I'm afraid for the safety of anyone who comes out or whose sexuality is revealed while in the military.
UserPostedImage
Cheesey
14 years ago
Leviticus 20:13
"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman,both of them have committed a detestable act, they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them." (Also see Leviticus 18:22)
Romans 1:26-28
"For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions, for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural.
and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper"
New American Standard Bible
I'd say that pretty much says how God feels about it.
UserPostedImage
Fan Shout
Zero2Cool (1h) : We have re-signed LB Isaiah McDuffie
Zero2Cool (2-Mar) : Jets taking calls for Davante Adams. That $38m cap number hurting lol
Zero2Cool (2-Mar) : Guess it's not official until the 12th
Zero2Cool (2-Mar) : Deebo went for a 5th to Commanders?
Martha Careful (1-Mar) : Just like my late husband!!
Zero2Cool (1-Mar) : Once fired up, it should be good
Zero2Cool (1-Mar) : Sometimes, the first page load will be slow. it's firing up the site.
Martha Careful (1-Mar) : The site is operating much faster...tyvm
Mucky Tundra (28-Feb) : It's the offseason and the draft is still nearly 2 months away, what can ya do?🤷‍♂️
Zero2Cool (27-Feb) : NFL teams were notified today that the 2025 salary cap has been set at $279,200,000 per club.
Zero2Cool (27-Feb) : sssllllooooow
Martha Careful (27-Feb) : is it just me, or has the website been slow the last couple of days?
buckeyepackfan (26-Feb) : Damnit 2026 2nd rnd pick!
buckeyepackfan (26-Feb) : Packers get Myles Garret and Browns 2926 2nd rnd pick.
buckeyepackfan (26-Feb) : Browns get Jaire, + Packers #1 2025 pick and 2026 3rd rnd pick.
beast (26-Feb) : Rams trying to trade Stafford and Kupp, then signing Rodgers and Adams? Just speculation, but interesting
Zero2Cool (26-Feb) : Packers shopping Jaire Alexander per Ian Rapoport
Zero2Cool (25-Feb) : Gutekunst and Jaire Alexander’s agent, John Thornton, are meeting this week in Indianapolis to determine the future of the Packers’ 28-year-
Zero2Cool (25-Feb) : Gutekunst says Mark Murphy told him he can trade their first-round pick despite the draft being in Green Bay.
Zero2Cool (24-Feb) : Packers. 🤦
Zero2Cool (24-Feb) : One team.
Zero2Cool (24-Feb) : One team petition NFL to ban Brotherly Shove.
beast (23-Feb) : Seems like he was just pissed because he was no longer the starter
beast (23-Feb) : Campbell is right, he's rich and he doesn't have to explain sh!t... but that attitude gives teams reasons to never sign him again.
dfosterf (22-Feb) : I have some doubt about all that
dfosterf (22-Feb) : I read De'Vondre Campbell's tweet this morning (via the New York Post) Florio says that if he invested his earnings wisely, he will be good
beast (20-Feb) : I haven't followed, but I believe he's good when healthy, just hasn't been able to stay healthy.
dfosterf (20-Feb) : Hasn"t Bosa missed more games than he has played in the last 3 years?
Mucky Tundra (19-Feb) : He hasn't been too bad when healthy but I don't feel like I ever heard much about when he is
Zero2Cool (19-Feb) : Felt like he was more interested in his body, than football. He flashed more than I expected
Zero2Cool (19-Feb) : When he was coming out, I thought he'd be flash in pan.
Mucky Tundra (19-Feb) : Joey seems so forgettable compared to his brother for some reason
Zero2Cool (19-Feb) : NFL informed teams today that the 2025 salary cap will be roughly $277.5M-$281.5M
Zero2Cool (19-Feb) : Los Angeles Chargers are likely to release DE Joey Bosa this off-season as a cap casualty, per league source.
Zero2Cool (18-Feb) : If the exploit is not fixed, we'll see tons of "50 top free agents, 50 perfect NFL team fits: We picked where each should sign in March" lo
Zero2Cool (18-Feb) : Issue should be solved, database cleaned and held strong working / meeting. Boom!
Zero2Cool (18-Feb) : It should be halted now.
Mucky Tundra (18-Feb) : usually spambots are trying to get traffic to shady websites filled with spyware; the two links being spammed were to the Packers website
Mucky Tundra (18-Feb) : you know when you put it that way combined with the links it was spamming (to the official Packers website)
Zero2Cool (18-Feb) : Yep. You can do that with holding down ENTER on a command in Console of browser
Mucky Tundra (18-Feb) : even with the rapid fire posts?
Zero2Cool (18-Feb) : I'm not certain it's a bot.
Mucky Tundra (18-Feb) : I've got to go to work soon which is a pity because I'm enthralled by this battle between the bot and Zero
Zero2Cool (18-Feb) : Yeah, I see what that did. Kind of funny.
Mucky Tundra (18-Feb) : now it's a link to Wes Hodkiezwicz mailbag
Mucky Tundra (18-Feb) : Now they're back with another topic
Mucky Tundra (18-Feb) : oh lol
Zero2Cool (18-Feb) : I have a script that purges them now.
Zero2Cool (18-Feb) : 118 Topics with Message.
Mucky Tundra (18-Feb) : what's 118 (besides a number)?
Please sign in to use Fan Shout
2024 Packers Schedule
Friday, Sep 6 @ 7:15 PM
Eagles
Sunday, Sep 15 @ 12:00 PM
COLTS
Sunday, Sep 22 @ 12:00 PM
Titans
Sunday, Sep 29 @ 12:00 PM
VIKINGS
Sunday, Oct 6 @ 3:25 PM
Rams
Sunday, Oct 13 @ 12:00 PM
CARDINALS
Sunday, Oct 20 @ 12:00 PM
TEXANS
Sunday, Oct 27 @ 12:00 PM
Jaguars
Sunday, Nov 3 @ 3:25 PM
LIONS
Sunday, Nov 17 @ 12:00 PM
Bears
Sunday, Nov 24 @ 3:25 PM
49ERS
Thursday, Nov 28 @ 7:20 PM
DOLPHINS
Thursday, Dec 5 @ 7:15 PM
Lions
Sunday, Dec 15 @ 7:20 PM
Seahawks
Monday, Dec 23 @ 7:15 PM
SAINTS
Sunday, Dec 29 @ 3:25 PM
Vikings
Sunday, Jan 5 @ 12:00 PM
BEARS
Sunday, Jan 12 @ 3:30 PM
Eagles
Recent Topics
16m / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

3h / Random Babble / dfosterf

10h / Green Bay Packers Talk / dfosterf

2-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

2-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

1-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / buckeyepackfan

1-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

1-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / dfosterf

28-Feb / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

28-Feb / Around The NFL / Martha Careful

27-Feb / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

27-Feb / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

26-Feb / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

26-Feb / Green Bay Packers Talk / buckeyepackfan

24-Feb / Green Bay Packers Talk / bboystyle

Headlines
Copyright © 2006 - 2025 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.