Formo
  • Formo
  • Veteran Member Topic Starter
13 years ago
NOTE: I quoted Non from one of the Favre threads and started a new one here as to not be pulling the discussion off topic.

Speaking of coming out, one of the lieutenants in my unit apparently came out (verbally) at some point in our two-week training exercise this month. The resultant shitstorm that is brewing overhead does not bode well for him. Don't-ask-don't-tell, while on its way out, has not been repealed yet.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



I know it's off topic.. but I never understood why some people feel that the Don't-Ask-Don't-Tell is so horribly wrong. I get how homosexuals in the military aren't treated right, blah blah blah.. my question is.. If that's the case.. Why in the HELL would a gay person, feel the urge to 'come out' while serving?? Especially knowing the history of gays in the military?

My opinion? They are masochist attention whores who love said shitstorms.
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dfosterf
13 years ago
I have seen it all on this one.

I cannot speak for the Army, Air Force, etc.

I cannot even speak for 90% of the Marine Corps.

I CAN speak for the line.

If you are gay (not that I have any problem with it whatsoever)

Be advised.

Do NOT go onto the line of the Marines.

My tolerance was in the minority of 1.

Not 1%....

Just me, essentially. In a world where EVERY Navy Corpsman was assumed to be gay and totally embraced by everyone. Really.

I wish that were funny, but everyone had guns and explosives, and they got "rules" and basically all " other " rules do not apply within the context of their "important" ones. Believe me.
Formo
  • Formo
  • Veteran Member Topic Starter
13 years ago
Yeah.. as unfortunate as that is.. I still don't understand why a guy guy would feel the urge to come out. Come out with your family.. come out with your friends.. That's fine. But seriously in the military?! You deserve whatever shit you are going to get.
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dfosterf
13 years ago

Yeah.. as unfortunate as that is.. I still don't understand why a guy guy would feel the urge to come out. Come out with your family.. come out with your friends.. That's fine. But seriously in the military?! You deserve whatever shit you are going to get.

"Formo" wrote:



No they don't, Jeremy

It's a mob mentality, of which I speak.

Every single one of them could have dealt with it on an individual basis, and would have... (not the gay guy, the guys that "hate" 'em)

Too macho

Too stupid

Priorities in the wrong place

NOT insecure, or homophobic-- It is weird like that--"they" don't like "anyone".. If you are African American (on the line) you are the "n" word.. WHITE- "cracker, stupid cracker, AND a white "n"--this is nifused in the normal conversation of everyone... we all have guns, lol

Just a displaced sense of "pride".

Like a weird "last bastion" of traditionalism, or something...

Unfortunately, at least as late as 2004, pretty fairly deadly for those that opted to challenge that perception.

My guess would be that the situation has exponentially improved since then, but I'm not the gay guy that would be literally betting his life on that one, which is extremely scary when you consider that "every Marine is a rifleman" and you are VERY subject to finding yourself in a line unit at some point, dependent upon where you are and some pure luck (or lack thereof)

Bottom line---semi-pun intended-- Everyone there perceives themselves as what you would call through your history lessons as an oppressed black man. White, black, hispanic, multinational... You are on the line, baby...

No room for fags, PC, whatever...we are going baser instincts here...

Sorry for the terminology, but that's how they roll. I was as PC as is possible while trying to illuminate-
Zero2Cool
13 years ago
My opinion, if their good enough to die for our freedom, they are sure as hell good enough to fight for it in any service they chose. That goes for Men, Women, White, Black, Straight, Gay, whomever/whatever.

I'm not IN the military, so I can't really say anything about it. I respect and appreciate all of who go into the service with no prejudice.
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dfosterf
13 years ago

My opinion, if their good enough to die for our freedom, they are sure as hell good enough to fight for it in any service they chose. That goes for Men, Women, White, Black, Straight, Gay, whomever/whatever.

I'm not IN the military, so I can't really say anything about it. I respect and appreciate all of who go into the service with no prejudice.

"Zero2Cool" wrote:



I agree 1000% Kev---

I am just trying to explain why there is a potential "problem" that may not be so readily evident on "paper".

...And the last line of "resistance", coupled withe the (far more important)
Army "line" units... They roll (as close as doggies can-editorialing, here lol)

...just like we do---

Seriously, they do. I love those guys too. They do not play, just like I did not.

It's a "line' thing, sorry...and I DID speak for the Army...the guys I know would have no problem with that one, but I'll be quiet about the rest....

I always HATE trying to explain this--people confuse my perceptions with reality and my warnings as a vet...you get some insight with Non's irreverence and my total disregard for your opinions (on the surface) It's a bitch to explain in this (again) PC world .

Non was not in my world, but he at least could bridge the gap, as he knows somewhat how they roll and why. It's an attempt.
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
13 years ago
I think I get your point, Foster. That sometimes that "mob mentality" is much closer to the surface than those "outside" really know.

I would never presume to tell the "line" how to approach their issues. I've studied just enough military history that there's far too much in that life I'm appallingly ignorant of.

It's more than that, though, since just being ignorant by itself has never stopped me from opining. But it's what I'm ignorant of. Its the shared mentality, bad and good both, that makes the your Corps a "corps," rather than just a bunch of strangers holding guns that happen to be in the same location at a given moment.

This is why I think so many of us are so off when we presume that just by changing the rules from outside, we can solve the problem.

Look, I think there is no biological or physical reason why gender or sex should make a difiference in combat. To my mind, combat success has some basic physical fitness requirements (I'd flunk) and some not-so-basic mental fitness requirements (I expect I'd flunk here, too). I do not claim to know what those requirements are, but my gut feeling -- and, if there's one thing I got, it's a damn big gut -- is that it has nothing to do with whether you have big dangly bits, small dangly bits, or no dangly bits at all (Zhang He was a eunuch, for exampl). And that it has nothing to do with who you want to use said dangly bits with.

And part of the reason my gut takes me that way is my perception that Foster feels similarly. (Right?)

But this issue isn't just a matter of deciding rational reason to exclude a lieutenant from serving just because he's gay or just because he goes public with his gayness (though, from what I've read and heard, there might be a reason because he's a lieutenant 🙂 ).

Communities are not wholly rational machines. They aren't fancy-schmancy Swiss clock mechanisms. They are a complex set of shared attitudes and beliefs. And every community has certain buttons that can give rise to "unthinking" mob-type actions. When Foster, who's been there and done that, and whose opinion on "what drives line Marines" I respect a great deal, says that this is one of those places, regardless of whether he'd like it otherwise or not, I listen.

That doesn't make the mob right, of course. But when those kinds of actions are involved, finding a solution takes much more than being right.

I'm not arguing for "don't ask, don't tell". And I'm not arguing against it. What I'm saying is if Foster is reading the "community of line-Marinedom correctly -- and I'm not going to claim I know enough to say he isn't -- is that getting the Marines to change doesn't have a simple political solution.

That change is going to have to figure out how to deal with, re-shape, change, that "mob mentality" part of the community.

It can be done. American mobs today don't have exactly the same trigger that French mobs had back in 1789. The mob mentality of a group of conscripts or peasants is going to be different than the mob mentality of a group of volunteers. The mob mentality that led to the original Tea Party is different than the mob mentality that led the Senate to pass the Patriot Act by a virtually unanimous vote. Mob mentalities evolve and change, just like any other historical process.

But to actually change what drives a mob -- I have no clue how to do that. Especially when it comes to a community I'm not and never have been a member of.

I might have some suggestions as how to change the mob within, say, the academic community. But change the mob within the Marines. No fucking clue.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Cheesey
13 years ago
Here is why: They want to be accepted as "normal". That's why they are coming out in all jobs.
Anyone with a different lifestyle does that. They all want to be accepted as "normal". Even the men that "love" boys thinks it's "normal" and they want to be accepted.
I don't hate gays. I think what they are doing is wrong. It's sin (according to the Bible) and shouldn't be accepted as "normal".
I have gay friends. They know where i stand, and why.

There are gay guys that are more "macho" then i am, and could beat the crap out of me.
Someone i know was in the Marines. While standing at a urinal, the guy next to him said "There's 2 things i like to do, suck d**k, and kick ass. You have a choice." Then proceded to kick the you-know-what out of the guy i know. (He wouldn't do the other thing for the guy)
UserPostedImage
13 years ago
Actually, the Bible really only mentions the physical act of gay sex a few times. It never discusses the lifestyle of homosexuality or attraction to the same sex.

Anyway, theoretically I completely support their right to come out or not come out. Practically speaking, it just seems like it would be a huge shit storm (as has been mentioned in this thread already). It isn't their problem, it's the rest of the people who would react horribly to it that are the problem. But that problem isn't going away any time soon. Hatred towards gays is still very prevalent in our society. I'm afraid for the safety of anyone who comes out or whose sexuality is revealed while in the military.
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Cheesey
13 years ago
Leviticus 20:13
"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman,both of them have committed a detestable act, they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them." (Also see Leviticus 18:22)
Romans 1:26-28
"For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions, for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural.
and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper"
New American Standard Bible
I'd say that pretty much says how God feels about it.
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