zombieslayer
14 years ago
David - Maybe we wouldn't have had all those inner city issues if we haven't been outsourcing their jobs since the 70s.

Fact - people with jobs commit less crimes than people without jobs.
My man Donald Driver
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dfosterf
14 years ago
That's all true. So are all the truisms.

We all know 'em.

Guns don't kill people, etc.

When guns are outlawed....

All I am saying is that philosophical debates, rightness, wrongness---


Doesn't do much for the world we actually do live in.



Societal problems are so inter-meshed with this subject that it is impossible to separate. National ID cards, illegal immigration, etc. etc. etc. I could go on and on.

My biggest argument is that it is almost pointless to argue it. Far more complicated than religion, at least in this country. The protestants aren't shooting the Catholics...yet :tongue3:
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago
Wasn't it Lazarus Long who said all the problems of the world are due to bad English teaching?

I've always liked that one. Think of all the damage that has been done by our regular uncritical acceptance of sentences like the following:

1. It's just a matter of opinion.
2. You can say anything with statistics.
3. That is offensive.
4. There oughta be a law.
5. He's just in it for the money.
6. The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer.
7. She's just a (insert abstract category here). You know how they are.
8. It's just politics.
9. It's just business.
10. It's just common sense.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago

That's all true. So are all the truisms.

We all know 'em.

Guns don't kill people, etc.

When guns are outlawed....

All I am saying is that philosophical debates, rightness, wrongness---


Doesn't do much for the world we actually do live in.



Societal problems are so inter-meshed with this subject that it is impossible to separate. National ID cards, illegal immigration, etc. etc. etc. I could go on and on.

My biggest argument is that it is almost pointless to argue it. Far more complicated than religion, at least in this country. The protestants aren't shooting the Catholics...yet :tongue3:

"dfosterf" wrote:



Ok, there you are wrong, Foster. Sorry.

Without philosophical consideration, there is no hope. Philosophy alone doesn't change anything, that I will grant you. But without philosophical care, action alone reduces everything to mere serendipity. Were it for not for philosophical explorations by Locke, Smith, Madison, Jefferson, Paine, Burke, explorations that got an amazing part of things right over the last 200 or so years. Heck, we could have followed the same path as the French for crying out loud.

The American Experiment may be on its last legs (depending on how pessimistic one is about the current state of affairs). But it did as well as it did not just because of the actions taken, but because the actions were taken on solid philosophical foundations in non-random ways.

Washington wasn't just a great general. He was a great philosopher. :study: 😎
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
dfosterf
14 years ago

That's all true. So are all the truisms.

We all know 'em.

Guns don't kill people, etc.

When guns are outlawed....

All I am saying is that philosophical debates, rightness, wrongness---


Doesn't do much for the world we actually do live in.



Societal problems are so inter-meshed with this subject that it is impossible to separate. National ID cards, illegal immigration, etc. etc. etc. I could go on and on.

My biggest argument is that it is almost pointless to argue it. Far more complicated than religion, at least in this country. The protestants aren't shooting the Catholics...yet :tongue3:

"Wade" wrote:



Ok, there you are wrong, Foster. Sorry.

Without philosophical consideration, there is no hope. Philosophy alone doesn't change anything, that I will grant you. But without philosophical care, action alone reduces everything to mere serendipity. Were it for not for philosophical explorations by Locke, Smith, Madison, Jefferson, Paine, Burke, explorations that got an amazing part of things right over the last 200 or so years. Heck, we could have followed the same path as the French for crying out loud.

The American Experiment may be on its last legs (depending on how pessimistic one is about the current state of affairs). But it did as well as it did not just because of the actions taken, but because the actions were taken on solid philosophical foundations in non-random ways.

Washington wasn't just a great general. He was a great philosopher. :study: 8)

"dfosterf" wrote:



Obviously ... I have those philosophical positions on this matter, but to what end?

Hell, there you go getting all philosophical about being philosophical, lol--

I am merely pointing out that the positions are entrenched, and no one is moving, lest the other side "erode" any small piece of "their" philosophy on the matter, rightness or wrongness be damned.

BTW, have you bounced your positions off your colleagues in academia?

You might be on safe terrain in Iowa. I recall being in a minority of approximately one on much of this subject. Color me "philosophied out" on it, especially in light of an environment that requires me to be PC, versus truthful...the rules got taken out from underneath me in my lifetime.
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago


Obviously ... I have those philosophical positions on this matter, but to what end?

Hell, there you go getting all philosophical about being philosophical, lol--

I am merely pointing out that the positions are entrenched, and no one is moving, lest the other side "erode" any small piece of "their" philosophy on the matter, rightness or wrongness be damned.

BTW, have you bounced your positions off your colleagues in academia?

You might be on safe terrain in Iowa. I recall being in a minority of approximately one on much of this subject. Color me "philosophied out" on it, especially in light of an environment that requires me to be PC, versus truthful...the rules got taken out from underneath me in my lifetime.

"dfosterf" wrote:



Er, um, er. Points taken.

IMO most of the academy is hopeless. Do I bounce my positions off them? Well, not really. Though I am giving a public lecture this spring, my first one post-leave, in which I will "go public" with some of my medium-radical ones. But, in general, I don't bother. Before I got tenure, I did so out of self-preservation (or, if you will, general wussitude). Now, I do so primarily because I consider it a waste of time. And because I've decided I'm not going to do what I did to get tenure to get the even more dubious "honor" of promotion.

Before Tenure, I would not have shared my views on a public forum (even one password protected) like this one the way I do. But today...well, you all see what I say.

And I do share my ideas with my students. From day one of class students see me admitting my "biases and prejudices" (including why I think most claims of "objectivity" are a crock). It helps that I'm an equal opportunity abuser: Bush-thinking comes in for as much scorn as Obama-thinking. And I'm real fond of the "economics" version of Sturgeon's Law ("economics is science fiction, and 90 percent of all science fiction is crap").

I have a few colleagues with whom I'll engage in serious "philosophical" exploration, but not many. Our next Washingtons and Jeffersons and Lockes aren't to be found coming from the academy, any more than our next great artists or poets will be.

My hopes are with those currently under 30.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
zombieslayer
14 years ago


I am merely pointing out that the positions are entrenched, and no one is moving, lest the other side "erode" any small piece of "their" philosophy on the matter, rightness or wrongness be damned.

"dfosterf" wrote:



Actually, I beg to differ. Young minds absorb so much information that they change often.

I was a socialist at one time. I had a degree in History and thought that socialism was the only fair way to go.

Then I realized fair on paper and fair in reality are two completely different things.

People do grow up. People change. And get wiser. Or sometimes just more bitter.
My man Donald Driver
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(thanks to Pack93z for the pic)
2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. 🇹🇹 🇲🇲 🇦🇷
4PackGirl
14 years ago

conspiracy theories!!! everybody's out to get us!!! they're taking our freedoms away!!!! everyone should carry a gun!!! they're doing it to us!!! they're brainwashing us!!! they need to stop making new laws!!!


this is what irritates the livin piss outta me...THEY are elected by US!! if people would open their f'in minds to the possibility that neither political party has it right, WE might just be able to turn this country around. but hell, why not just continue to act self-righteous about one political party or the other...yeah that's workin GREAT!!!

here's an idea...just cuz your mama or daddy chose a certain party doesn't mean you HAVE to choose the same one or ANY of them. have your own mind & don't allow politicians sway you!!

/rant off.

"dfosterf" wrote:



Me?

I'm in the business of "swaying politicians." I do not put up with their shit. I gave our state senator HELL in line when getting ready to vote (I was pissed about his vote for the smoking ban here in Pennsylvania)

These bastards are incompetent, arrogant and stupid here in PA. I am about to incur a full 30% increases in my electric bill, OVERNIGHT--literally--- thanks to "deregulation" and "consumer choice." (I couldn't make this shit up if I tried.)

My state senator is going to be held accountable for this. I am making it my business to start the process this very morning. I wrote him with my "immediate" complaint, and I friggin' DARE him to not respond to my letter.

My "first shot" across his bow, wrote and sent this am:

In the midst of an impending event of major significance to all of your constituents...the huge increases in electrical generation fees, our state government creates a website that is less than worthless when attempting to shop for a new supplier. Check it out for yourself. While it gives some useful information about rates that various suppliers are offering, it does not tell you by zip code, etc. if that supplier is available in our area. The Patriot News admonished the government for this failure in an editorial, mentioning that there were 7 suppliers in the Harrisburg area (for example)--and then proceeded to FAIL TO TELL US WHO THEY WERE! I am aware of Dominion Energy, ConEd, and Direct Energy (with a 100 cancellation fee, but best rate so far) Who are the others? How about doing your constituents a REAL SERVICE and placing what is known on your website? I talked to you in line when voting (I was the guy giving you hell about the smoking ban), and did vote for you. Thank you for reading my request

"4PackGirl" wrote:



I will let everyone I know just exactly how well (or how poorly) my elected official handled my request. My "issue" is going to NAIL these Pavlovian dogs square in the wallet in about a month...THEN they will be "up in arms" about it...everyone.

These suppliers can mitigate the increase by up to about half of the amount, btw...at least what I have discovered so far. It might seem to be off-topic, but is really quite close to that which you speak of, Julie.



that's EXACTLY what i'm talkin about, foster. we as a people HAVE to stand up for what is clearly right & wrong. i think we've decided that gov't has ALL the power & we have NONE. we throw our hands up in the air & say "what can WE do?" get the facts & get involved!!

i wasn't directing any of my comments at anyone in particular so for those who seemed to take it personally...don't.
4PackGirl
14 years ago

conspiracy theories!!! everybody's out to get us!!! they're taking our freedoms away!!!! everyone should carry a gun!!! they're doing it to us!!! they're brainwashing us!!! they need to stop making new laws!!!

"Porforis" wrote:



Obviously some people overreact and worry too much. On the other side of the aisle, the fringe say that Bush engineered 9/11 so he could go invade Iraq for the oil. I'd say it's not quite "lunatic fringe" to take a look at the recent rapid expansion of government (under Obama AND Bush II) and wonder when it's going to stop.

this is what irritates the livin piss outta me...THEY are elected by US!! if people would open their f'in minds to the possibility that neither political party has it right, WE might just be able to turn this country around. but hell, why not just continue to act self-righteous about one political party or the other...yeah that's workin GREAT!!!

"4PackGirl" wrote:



So your suggestion is to hate both parties equally? Already done, I'm more concerned about government in general rapidly expanding its role into the private sector. If you want to calm down a bit and have a debate over this, I'm sure it'll shed some light on why some people are afraid of the government taking over everything.

here's an idea...just cuz your mama or daddy chose a certain party doesn't mean you HAVE to choose the same one or ANY of them. have your own mind & don't allow politicians sway you!!

"4PackGirl" wrote:



If that was directed at anyone in particular, that was kind of uncalled for. As far as I'm aware, everyone in this topic is over the age of 20 (a few a lot older ;)).

Would you be ranting about blindly following mommy and daddy if we were complaining about how Bush invaded Iraq for oil and wanted to know why nobody was willing to stop the health insurance companies from letting us all die while raking in massive profits? Or is it more motivated by disagreement with us? This can be a civil forum, let's keep it that way.

"4PackGirl" wrote:




perhaps you missed the end of my post where i said "rant off". everyone here has a right to voice their opinions & YES - to rant about them every once in awhile.

i'm just tired of the stupidity of our society as a whole. people who honestly believe everything glenn beck or keith olbermann say just amaze me. i come from a mostly republican area & i'm shocked to see my friends who actually believe that 9/11 was staged and/or that obama wasn't born in the USA.

do i think we have too much gov't & laws - HELL YES!! i don't think we should have bailed out ANYONE! although i've also been saying for years that we should help our own country & get the heck outta every other freakin country we're in so i guess i'm a contradiction! lol.

i believe it's fear that drives us to do nothing. i'd like to discuss further but it's time to get the grub ready for new years eve!!
Porforis
14 years ago


I am merely pointing out that the positions are entrenched, and no one is moving, lest the other side "erode" any small piece of "their" philosophy on the matter, rightness or wrongness be damned.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



Actually, I beg to differ. Young minds absorb so much information that they change often.

I was a socialist at one time. I had a degree in History and thought that socialism was the only fair way to go.

Then I realized fair on paper and fair in reality are two completely different things.

People do grow up. People change. And get wiser. Or sometimes just more bitter.

"dfosterf" wrote:



In 10th grade I was middle-far left. 3 years later I was middle of the road. 4 years later, I'm middle-far right. People do change.
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