Green Bay no longer is the Siberia of the NFL, the place where in the 1970s and 1980s other teams threatened to ship players if they didnt fall in line.
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But as by far the leagues smallest city and given its location in a cold climate, Green Bay still is fighting a stigma as one of the NFLs least attractive places to play.
Sports Illustrated recently conducted a poll of 296 NFL players and asked them which NFL team would you least like to play for? The Oakland Raiders topped the poll with 20 percent of the votes. The Buffalo Bills were second at 14 percent, followed by the Packers (13 percent), Detroit Lions (12 percent) and Cleveland Browns (7 percent).
I was probably one of them, too, before I came to visit, Packers nose tackle Ryan Pickett said. Its a smaller town, most other teams are in a major city. A small town, cold, cold weather, so many players are from Southern states, they probably thought it was cold and a small town. But if they ever come here Id rather play here, I wish Id played here my whole career. No kidding.
The seven players interviewed for this story, all African-American, said in strong terms they like playing in Green Bay and for the Packers.
A couple of the players were surprised and bothered by the perception that this is one of the more unattractive places to play.
Several others said they understood why many other players would think that if they havent played here.
Several of the players identified Green Bays weather and lack of nightlife as legitimate drawbacks, but most dismissed the areas relative lack of racial diversity as a problem. None mentioned anything about the Packers management as a problem.
If youre thinking about playing football, I dont think you can vote this one of the worst places to play, linebacker Nick Barnett said. Thats insane that you wouldnt want to play for a storied tradition like the Green Bay Packers. The only thing I can take into account is theyre not thinking the right way, theyre thinking about other things, theyre not thinking about whats important, what it means to be a Green Bay Packer. I dont think people understand that from the outside looking in.
Several of the players were asked whether they knew anyone whod left the Packers in free agency because he found playing in Green Bay unpalatable.
Im sure its happened, receiver James Jones said.
Former cornerback Mike McKenzie, who forced a trade in the 2004 season, was the most high-profile case of a player who didnt like playing in Green Bay, though its never been clear how much of that was his dislike of the city and how much was because former coach Mike Sherman wouldnt upgrade his contract.
Jones, whos from California, estimated that perhaps half the players on the team might be dissatisfied with the weather, bored with the nightlife, or both, but guessed that few if any would prefer to leave the organization because of it.
I dont know. That has to do with the person, he said. If youre bored, you could think that way, but myself, Im a laid-back guy, and they treat you better than any organization here. I havent been in another organization, but I have friends in the league, I talk to them, its nothing like this (with some other teams). The stuff I hear goes on (elsewhere), Im like, No, that doesnt go on over here.
The question, then, is whether the poll means the Packers are at much of a competitive disadvantage. With the allure of contract extensions and use of the franchise tag, teams have ways to convince or compel players to stay with them. Besides McKenzie, the only player who in recent years forced his way out of Green Bay was receiver Javon Walker, whose dispute with the team was solely contractual.
The degree to which other teams free agents are dissuaded from signing with the Packers is impossible to measure. The Packers 1993 signing of Reggie White, perhaps the most coveted free agent since the current system was put in place that year, went a long way toward removing the worst of the stigma from the 70s and 80s.
The fact is, money is by far the biggest factor in where free agents sign, as the White signing attests. If all other things are equal, then the climate and size of Green Bay could be a deciding factor against the Packers, though part of the teams responsibility is to sell the town when free agents visit.
When I was a free agent (with St. Louis) and coming up on the last few games (in 2005), our season was pretty much over and I had a couple lists and thought Green Bay, thats not really a place I want to play since Im from Florida, Pickett said.
Until I visited. When I visited I was, Oh, OK, I see why people (play here). And really it wasnt me, it was my wife, she loved it. The people in the organization, they took her out on the town, and she liked the family atmosphere. She was sold and it didnt take much to sell me.
Cornerback Charles Woodson is the highest-profile free agent the Packers have signed since White, and he has played for two teams at the top of the players wish list, Oakland and the Packers. Woodson said that when he hit the free-agent market in 2006, the Packers werent on his radar, either.
I wasnt coming here, he said this week.
The market for Woodson at that time proved softer than expected, and the only teams that pushed hard to sign him were Tampa Bay and the Packers. The Packers offered the better contract and promised to keep him at cornerback.
Almost four years later, Woodson says he likes Green Bay probably for the same reasons you do if you like it, and that many of his friends around the league are surprised when tells them hes happy.
I dont have to defend (Green Bay), he said, I just tell them I like it. A lot of them think Im just (lying), but I cant make up anybody elses mind.
Halfback Ahman Green is one of the rare players who kept his offseason home in Green Bay even after he left the Packers for another team, the Houston Texans, in 2007. Green, who re-signed with the Packers earlier this season, grew up in California and has lived in Nebraska, Florida, Washington (with the Seattle Seahawks) and Texas. He said the Texans players were astonished when they learned he had a home in Green Bay.
That was a common thing. It was like, Oh my God, Green said. Its not hell. Ive been in worse places, seen worse places. Green Bay isnt bad at all. Ill take that over a lot of places. Ill take it over Houston, Houston is too dang hot.
One demographic of the poll underlines the concerns of NFL players that Green Bays size and nightlife are a detriment. Among the youngest players polled those who have been in the league five of fewer years the Packers had the most votes as the least-desirable team at 16 percent.
Rookie outside linebacker Brad Jones said he was astonished the Packers finished atop the list among players in his age group. Jones, who grew up in Michigan and played in college at Colorado, is evidence that the perception of cities in the league is highly personal.
Even if youd asked me when I was in high school and college, he said, Green Bay, although I knew it was a small town, it wouldnt have come up on that list at all because if Id think about anything, Id think about the players, Oh man, Id be excited to play in Green Bay because of all the history there.
You think about Green Bay, for me if theres one organization you think about all the tradition and history, its Lambeau Field, its Green Bay, all the greats. It seems like so many great things have happened here, that tradition really stuck out to me before I got here. I dont know why people would say that. That makes no sense to me.