This is *exactly* the point of the original post. To generalize from a few hundred incidents to a blanket statement about billions of people is *FUCKING SHODDY QUANTITATIVE THINKING*.
So you are saying that Muslims located in Texas or Iowa or New York or Seattle or a hundred thousand other places in the world have to worry about losing body parts? Good grief.
The point is, again, that when you make blanket statements like "it's their way of life", you aren't just lumping the whackos of Al-Queda, Iran, etc. together, you're lumping them with hundreds of millions of people who aren't located in any of those places.
How many Muslims live in the United States? Somewhere between 5 and 8 million. If you truly think that they all celebrate or even "sympathize" with terrorists, you are profoundly ignorant.
I'm not a fan of the Muslim religion. I'm a fundie Christian, after all. I don't think all religions are equivalent. I think some of Mohammed's teachings are whacked. Mohammed to me was just a man. Jesus to me *is* more than a man.
But the fact that Muslims follow Mohammed doesn't make them terrorists, or even whacked. People are more complex than that.
Ah, but that's Jesus's job, not ours. We aren't the ones who are going to be on the throne doing the vanquishing. He is.
And if He thinks we think ourselves superior enough to do His job, there's a good chance He might vanquish us right along with them.
And every time we say "the enemy makes it necessary", The Enemy cheers us closer to the precipice.
Demonizing a quarter to a third of the world's population is not a recipe for solving problems. Demonizing 3-5% of the nation's population is not a recipe for social order. Demonizing that many people just makes the real bastards the winners.
Frankly, if Americans were as serious about terrorism as we claim to be, we'd stop worrying about whether that swarthy bearded fellow next to us in the airport lounge is a terrorist or not and yammering about how the TSA "protects us" and how "air travel is a privilege", and we'd take all that imperial power at our fingertips and seriously hammer the states that sponsor terrorism.
The states that hide behind their Islam and do everything they can to convince people like you that the problem is Islam when all it is barbarism.
There are daily acts of lots of horrible things. In a world of several billion people, there are going to be. That doesn't make everyone horrible.
I thank you for again illustrating the point of my original post: when we make broad claims about "everyone" or "almost all" or whatever, we're making really big empirical claims. And we're making them based on small samples that tend to many, many principles of careful empirical thinking.
And, IMO, in so doing, we are committing some of the very idolatry -- namely, the idolatry of our own "human" powers of reason -- that Jesus warns us against again and again. We're claiming to be able to know more about our fellow human beings, and the quality of their sinfulness, than we have the ability to know.
And, after all, isn't that where bigotry comes from in the end? Our ignorance of the degree of our own ignorance?
I'm not sure what you mean by "transference" here. But how is the Christian's belief *not* about that Christian? Recall Romans 12. Which is more important for us? Asserting moral superiority over those who throw bombs? Deciding who should be our enemy? Applying judgmental labels to billions of people we have never met or had a chance to have a single internet exchange with?
Or is it something else?
Is this *fair*? I don't know. Is this holding Christians to a higher standard? Damn straight it is.
IMO, a central "fact" of my Christian belief is my personal recognition that I am far, far, closer to those I would label barbarians than I am to Jesus, and that means I should be worrying about them far less and the state of my own soul far more.
Maybe the percentage of "evil Muslims" is greater than the percentage of "evil Christians." But the reality is that man is not doomed to hell because he is evil, but because he is fallen, because in the sin of his self-idolatry he assumes he can determine what only God can determine.
And, IMO, dealing with our fallenness is far, far more important than dealing with evil. The point of turning the other cheek (which, alas, I'm pretty damn bad at) is not to assume responsibility for the blow that is about to hit it. The point of turning the other cheek is to help remember that *the other guy* is never my biggest enemy.
Originally Posted by: wade
First of all, Wade, I appreciate the civil and thorough reply.
I had to look up "fundie", as I had never heard that term before. I guess according to the definition, I fit that label too. I guess also, in a way that is part of the point. Christian religions have a much smaller percentage of "fundies" than Islam, and the "whacked" teachings which that much bigger percentage of them are so dedicated to do not include much about love and tolerance and self-examination like Christianity. IMO, however, you carry some of those uniquely Christian doctrines to a little too much of an extreme. Sometimes, a little bit of "Old Testament" lack of tolerance and ass-kicking of self-proclaimed enemies is in order. One lesser point along those lines, you stated that Jesus sitting on His throne will handle the vanquishing; There is a strong reference also to an army of Christian saints who return to be co-rulers with Him and who take on the forces of the beast - who I think by that time have already vanquished the Muslims hahahaha and defeat them at Armageddon. So if you and I make the cut, we might be doing some vanquishing ourselves hahahaha. Regarding your broad statements about "idolatry of our powers of reason" and identifying sins of others, etc., you do some subtle but pretty significant judging yourself with the standard you hold Christians to, etc. Some "sins" are basically self-evident, and some sinners identify themselves by the fruits of their acts - including but not limited to terrorist bombing. Yes, of course, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God", but my particular belief - I guess not substantiated by the Bible, is that God recognizes a hierarchy of sins also, and it has something to do with the inverse of what Jesus said about treatment of other people - the "least of these my brethren" - not to mention, of course, the ones labeled "abomination", etc. Anyway, wiping out a market full of innocent brethren IMO might be a little bit higher on the list of sins.
You get a little bit careless with words at times, and ironically, considering the original premise of your thread, careless with numbers also. I, for example, am scrupulous about saying things like "almost all" - which is hugely different from a blanket statement of "all". You seem to have a problem distinguishing between the truth of the one and the falseness by exception of the other. You speak of American "empirical claims". Where? How? Unless you want to count Puerto Rico and Guam, there basically is no American empire and really never has been. A blanket statement about "billions" of people? Assuming you mean Muslims, the high estimate of the total is 1.5 billion; I've also heard 600 million, and of course, I've said repeatedly "most" or "the great majority" of them - NOT that they are perpetrating acts of terrorism, but that they enthusiastically support those who do - much the same as we enthusiastically support the few who win games for the Packers. 1/4 to 1/3 of the world's population? Assuming again you mean Muslims, 600 million to 1.5 billion is a far cry from 1/4 to 1/3 of 7 billion or so people in the world - no big deal, and I'm not usually one to sweat small details, but you were the one emphasizing poor "quantitative thinking" or whatever. Also, 5 to 8 million Muslims in the U.S. - your figure - it seems a bit high to me, but I'll accept it. However, you go on to state that 5 to 8 million is 3 - 5% of the population, which is now what? 320 million? Do the math hahahahaha. Again, no big deal except that YOU were the one talking about "FUCKING SHODDY QUANTITATIVE THINKING". And demonizing them? I'd say their own support of the terrorists does that.
When I said "transference", I meant your propensity to transfer the discussion to Christians from Muslims - and you certainly expanded on that in the latest post hahaha. You made mention of making enemies of people - not being a very Christian thing to do; Well, who makes an enemy of whom? Muslims, I say again, are our enemy NOT because I say it, NOT because the American government or any Christian group says it, but because the damned Muslims themselves say it - loud and often.
One more thing, going back to Christian doctrine, I don't accept your premise that we - you, I, most Christians, most Americans - are closer in thought, word, and deed to the terrorists than to Jesus. First of all, this is another example of YOU making judgments. Secondly, falling short of perfection and committing a myriad of IMO lower level sins - lower than mass murder and destruction anyway, is a smaller gap than what we do and what we are compared to the deeds of the terrorists - IMO - just to take any judgment angle out of the equation.
Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.