holy crap - well said, kevin. i missed where this all started but i couldn't agree more with what you're saying. until each person takes responsibility for themselves, we're f'n screwed as a society. why were the 50's such a wonderful time to grow up? because people cared about each other & their neighbors. now it's all ME ME ME...what can you do for ME? what can you give ME? what about ME? i don't have time to care about you...just ME ME ME!!!!!

there was also a sense of personal pride. not in what you HAD but in what you DID for others. you might not have much but if you were a 'good guy' you were heralded. now being a 'good guy' means very little to some. if you're a 'good guy' then you're weak, a pansy, walked over, & an idiot according to the pessimistic assholes who want to knock you down.

we're lazy ass people & to be a positive person takes alot of work. nobody wants to work so let's just jump on the bitchy bandwagon, complain about our lot in life, how the gov't screwed us over, how we deserve what the wealthier people have, & if that means we have to use credit cards to get what the wealthy have then so be it!

sorry - not in the best of moods today - lost a dear friend to cancer last nite so if i seem particularly snarky - deal with it!! 🙂

Let's see, I'm self righteous for pointing out obvious shit that nobody has the balls to think about or actually own up to, and the fifties were a wonderful time. Let's see first let's tackle the 50's - the inception of the baby boomer generation. Well paying jobs for the white males and the mother got to stay home and cook and clean like June Cleaver. Women were treated like brain dead objects (the bra burning didn't begin til the 60's). The blacks were being hosed down by racist police, latino's and asians were being treated well like always - ignorant workers - and the Native Americans were being successful turned into insignifact alcoholics. Yeah that was a banner fucking time for America.

Keep your heads in sand and lets sweep everything under the carpet because that's what we always do. The meek are going to inherit the earth, and sorry but the white folk aren't and never were the meek. I'll STFU now - can't plant too many seeds in fantasy land, it might actually cause some kind of reaction.

I know Zero, I forgot my sarcasm smiley.

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I'm not bending over for others mistakes, why, because no one bends over for MY mistakes. I take responsibility for them, I am accountable for them, I atone for them. Me, no one else. I never once said to sweep anything under the rug, I never once said that stuff didn't nor doesn't happen. Keep putting words in my mouth thinking you're being all "self righteous" ... say whatever makes you sleep better at night, hypocrite.

The day what you're saying should happen is the day we are no longer free. Think hard about that, and I mean THINK about it. Don't be shallow minded, don't be narrow minded, actually THINK about it.


I was born in the 80's, not the 50's, not the 60's ... I've made mistakes, but they were never racially motivated, nor based on sexism. I wouldn't expect my great grandchildren to suffer because MY mistakes, that's just irresponsible. Hey I can be a biggot because my great grandchildren will atone for it!! woohooo !!!


Stupid.

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I knew a man who once told me he applied to 3 universities for his doctorate. His first choice was Duke. It was based on what his doctorate was going to be and also the closeness to his home. It has been a few years ago and I forget what his 2nd choice was. Another prominent Southern university. His 3rd choice was Emory University. They didn't really have what he was looking for but he needed 3 choices as a backup and he liked the campus or their location or something like that. Like I said I forget all the details.

Duke sent him a letter. They rejected him because they had enough middle age white men. Their letter went on to say if he could prove he was a minority in some way or underprivileged they would reconsider his application. He was really disappointed. The forgotten university had expressed a similar view. Emory not only wrote him a letter, they called him and told him how excited they were with his chosen doctorate. They thought it would be a great fit for both the college and him. He said he would consider their offer and let them know.

A few weeks went by. He was approaching the deadline for making his decision. Emory or apply to other universities as well. A second letter from Duke arrived. They apologized for their prior rejection. They did a little more research and found out he was born in an area of western Virgina (Not West Virgina) that was a part of Appalachia. It and the counties around it were impoverished he thus qualified to complete his doctorate at Duke.

He considered their offer. It was his dream to get his degree from Duke but he turned them down. If they didn't want him for who he was and what he could offer them, he didn't want to be associated with the university.

He went on to say that during is deliberation he thought about his childhood. It was true that almost nobody had any money when he was going up. But everyone had a good quality of life. The people had pride in what they had and their community. The homes were cared for. The yards clean and maintained. Fences in order. Kids may have hand me down clothes but they were clean and if they had holes they had been mended. (This is the dreaded 50's Dakota) No one went hungry if others knew about it. Everyone looked out for each other.

Then the 60's rolled around and the government programs. They come in to the area and told everyone how bad they had things. The govt started handing out money to all these poor people. And things in the community began to slid. He went back for a visit in the late 70's. It wa a disaster. They houses were in disrepair. The yards had trash piled in them. The fences broke down. Kids running the streets like rats. Filthy. He decided if the government hadn't come in with a bag of money and told everyone that they were helpless, things would have been a lot better. Certainly there was a decay in US society in general that contributed to the problem. But there are many other areas that don't have the issues his home town faces. Entitlement programs cripple the very people they are trying to help. They have been around since they 60's and nothing has improved at all. It is time to come up with a new plan.

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Until one of you explains to me how we can possible be forgiven for slavery, the unjust conquest of American Southwest, and the treatment of the Asians and American Indians this conversation goes nowhere. Those wounds have not been cleansed, or the attempt even made. They are still wide open. We whip out our flags and proclaim our freedom a couple times a year and Lee Greenwood gets a few gigs and sings "Proud to be and American" and we feel all giddy. It's all bullshit because American was built on the backs of those aforementioned oppressed peoples. And the biggest beneficiaries of the bull shit are the top 5 percenters and it is why I have a strong disdain for them. Even if they were stripped of all their wealth - it wouldn't be enough to make it all right.

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let me tell you a little story, dakota -

when my grandparents moved into a small town in the 30's, they were considered "nasty Italians" & treated like subpar human beings. did that stop them? no. my grandpa opened up a grocery store, worked his ass off, made it work, & lived his life. he never forgot those who talked behind his back but it didn't stop him from being a wonderful businessman who gave far more than he received. he carried families on the books for years because it was the right thing to do. they were treated horribly by some people in the beginning but after awhile, they were accepted.

this is a story that can be told by countless immigrants - nothing special with them - just the way things were. they accepted it, dealt with it, & moved the hell on. i wouldn't call them oppressed in the strongest sense of the word but they were discriminated against for many years, called WOP's (without papers) to their faces, & were told to go back where they came from.

i know it's completely different than slavery & being forced off your own land but to completely ignore what the immigrants did for this country isn't right either. how do we get forgiveness? when we stop being racists, truly understand that we all bleed red, we all cry the same tears, & have the same fears & joys. when we stop judging others. when we stop putting ourselves on a pedestal. when we think of others before ourselves. when we accept the lives we have. when we let go of the hate.

One:
Don't confuse "forgiveness" with "compensation" or "justice" or any of those other things.

Forgiveness cannot be earned. Only asked for.

Forgiveness is not deserved. Forgiveness is a gift to the undeserving.

Forgiveness is not about providing justice. Forgiveness is saying justice is less important than something else.

That's why it bugs the heck out of me that people think they are following Jesus when they are proclaiming justice as their primary objective. Jesus's radicalism was saying, "The world is inherently unjust. You are inherently unjust (and all those other sinful things, too). Having a sinless man, a sinless God, die on the cross, is the ultimate injustice. And your salvation is worth all that injustice. I forgive you."

Two:
I don't believe the "built on the back of the oppressed" argument. It simply isn't accurate as an empirical matter. Take away the slavery and all the rest of the bad stuff and America would still be the richest country in human history. The wealth created over the last 200 years is simply too big to be explained by the wealth stolen by slavery, imperialism, and all the rest.

That doesn't make all that bad stuff right. And it doesn't justify all the backslapping and self-congratulation we give ourselves for being free, etc. I share your scorn for the Madison-Avenue style "celebrations" of freedom and the red, white, and blue. Most of the recently completed network/sports world homage to the "sacrifices of Sept 11" makes me puke: it's like the exec who goes to church and does his "pillar of the community" schtick every Sunday, and then turns around treating employees and customers and family like dirt the rest of the time.

Yes, the firemen who went up the stairs were heroes. But not because they were Americans and that's what Americans do better than anyone. But because they were firemen and heroes.

America may not be a banana republic, but it's far from the "ultimate achievement in freedom" we like to proclaim it to be, either. And its moving farther away from it every day.

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I don't understand the point trying to make. Your family overcame, like many others have. Were they tied to trees and whipped? Kicked of their lands with no compensations? Almost exterminated from existence. It's not hatred that we all might have that we are discussing - it is the hatred that is held towards us and how the hell do we ever make it right?

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Wade

1. Until an accurate account of what concessions were made at the Council of Nicea between the Pagans and Christians is allowed to the public - we'll just leave the crucifiction argument alone.

2. Without first stealing all the lands in America, there would be no wealth in which to speak of. How can you make something righteous from something wrong? Hell even the Louisiana Purchase was thievery, but we like to think of it as a real good deal.

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Isn't this part of Kevin's point? We can't make it right. No matter what we do, we can't change the past. No matter who is to blame or who isn't to blame (to my mind, the wrong argument entirely), we can't change what has already happened.

All we can do is change what we do in the future. We can use to past to look back and resolve "Never again. Not on my watch." But we can't go back and change what has happened, no matter how sincere our feelings and our anger and our despair over what has happened.

If people want me to apologize for slavery and the Holocaust (I'm sure I have German somewhere among my ancestors) and the Crusades and every other evil my ancestors have done, fine. I apologize. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

And where, exactly, has that apology gotten anyone? Indeed, to the extent that it is sincere, to the extent that I am serious in making it, it may make things worse. Because it convinces me, or someone else, that I've actually demonstrated that I give a shit about my fellow man when I have done nothing of the sort. Because all I've done is do what the Sunday Christian does. I've covered up my scumbag, unbathed self with fancy clothes and lilac cologne.

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