Cheesey
16 years ago
Hey Formo!
I guess great minds think alike!
I just decided after posting my thoughts that there was no use doing so.
But you were pretty darn close to what i said!

It's always easy to "monday morning QB" decisions that were made. Fact is, the republicans AND democrats agreed that going in was the right thing to do. Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20 of course. Once we DID go in, we couldn't just back out and leave the next despot take over............god knows there were PLENTY in line, ready to do so.
I wish we would have done the same thing in North Korea. NOW look at the pickle we are in..........in fact, the whole WORLD is in, because no one had the balls to stop that dictator BEFORE he armed himself with nukes. The whole UN shook their collective fingers at him, and he KNEW they had NO TEETH, so he did whatever he wanted. The world is alot less safe now.

Of course had we STOPPED him, there would be those that would be bashing the U.S. now for doing so.
It's times like this that i am truely glad i don't have any children. What kind of a world would they be growing up in?
If they all arn't nuked by a madman, that is.
UserPostedImage
IronMan
16 years ago
So please tell me the plan to make sure there is NEVER a repeat of Hussein. There is no plan. Because that would be impossible. And if that is the reason we are still over there, then we will be there forever.

And I like how you guys always try to turn this into democrat vs republicans. Its impossible to discuss politics with anyone, because no one can ever be objective. I once asked a friend who he was voting for and he said "John Kerry" After asking him why, he simply said, "Because I'm a democrat."

I always found it amuzing how people who have no official ties to either party, decide that they are either one or the other, and will vote that way no matter what. And whenever something goes wrong, its always the OTHER parties fault.
Nonstopdrivel
16 years ago
This is all I have to say about this issue.

Before the first George Bush imposed economic sanctions on Iraq, the number one epidemiological problem in Iraq was obesity. By the time we invaded Iraq the second time, the number one epidemiological problem in Iraq was starvation. Estimates range as high as 600,000 children starved to death as a direct result of the sanctions.

I've read estimates that Saddam Hussein's thugs killed as many as 35,000 to 50,000 Iraqis in the 35+ years they were in power. Sounds like a lot at first glance.

Until you consider the fact that in a mere six years since we invaded, legions more Iraqis have died (estimates range widely, from the tens of thousands to the hundreds of thousands). Thousands of doctors, lawyers, engineers, university professors, scientists, and religious leaders have been slaughtered or forced to flee. The brain drain has been frightful. Hospitals remain in critical condition. Water purification systems remain in shambles. Much of the country still doesn't have power for more than a few hours a day. The highways, formerly some of the best in the Middle East, are a wreck.

And that doesn't even count the thousands of troops we've lost over there.

We often forget that Iraq was formerly a liberal secular state. Now it's swiftly becoming, for all practical purposes, a fundamentalist Islamic theocracy. Between my first and second deployments I was shocked at the level of deterioration I saw. Before we invaded Iraq, a woman could walk the streets of Baghdad alone in blue jeans without fear. Now she must walk around in full hijaab with a male escort to avoid being targeted by Islamic fundamentalists.

So I ask you: Who really unleashed terror in Iraq?

Whether in ousting Saddam Hussein we did what had to be done is a matter for debate, but to say we are leaving Iraq a better place is just laughable. Saddam Hussein may have been an evil man, but he understood intuitively something we can't seem to figure out: The country of Iraq is an unnatural entity that can only be held together through sheer threat of force. The Iraqis are not an individualistic culture like ours; they are a collectivist tribal culture. They don't want democracy; they never have; and they probably never will. So why don't we just let them have the kind of government they want and solve our own mounting problems at home?
UserPostedImage
IronMan
16 years ago
NSD nailed it. Absolutely NAILED it.
Gravedigga
16 years ago

3,500 deaths in this war compared to deaths of other wars or circumstances may seem small, but this war was unnecessary and wrong, and 1 death for an unjust war is too many.

"djcubez" wrote:


Tell that to the people of Iraq that were being raped, tortured, and slaughtered by Hussein.
When you see people being slaughtered by a mad man, and your response is to turn your back and act like it isn't happening, is that the right response?

"Cheesey" wrote:


Darfur, Rwanda, Tibet, Brazil, West Guinea...I could go on. Why are we allowed to turn our backs on these genocides but it's NOT ok to turn our backs on Iraq...

"cm_awesome" wrote:



Exactly!! The hypocrisy really makes me sick. Do we care or not? Care a little, a lot, for these people but not those people. Why are we not liberating the people of North Korea? Or Iran? Bring them democracy...............that we just sat & sit back letting this genocide in Africa happen, when we knew about it........God it makes me hate our politicians so much. Hard not to be ashamed of our countries politics.
--------------------------------------------
UserPostedImage


A wise man once said
---------------------------------------------
You are weak, pathetic and immature..............I would have d
Nonstopdrivel
16 years ago
Gravedigga, if you want to organize a mercenary force on your own dime to invade all the countries you feel aren't getting it right, you go right ahead. You have every right to perform whatever activist functions you want with your own money. It's not the rightful role of our military to impose our will -- our perception of what is right and wrong -- on every country just because we want to. And we don't have the resources to do it even if it were the right thing to do.
UserPostedImage
Gravedigga
16 years ago

3,500 deaths in this war compared to deaths of other wars or circumstances may seem small, but this war was unnecessary and wrong, and 1 death for an unjust war is too many.

"Formo" wrote:


Tell that to the people of Iraq that were being raped, tortured, and slaughtered by Hussein.
When you see people being slaughtered by a mad man, and your response is to turn your back and act like it isn't happening, is that the right response?

"djcubez" wrote:


Darfur, Rwanda, Tibet, Brazil, West Guinea...I could go on. Why are we allowed to turn our backs on these genocides but it's NOT ok to turn our backs on Iraq...

"Cheesey" wrote:



Tactically, they don't/didn't make as much sense? Who really knows? Evil triumphs when good men do nothing.

"cm_awesome" wrote:



Maybe i'm wrong. It looks like you're saying that it would be harder to do so lets stay out of it. If our government thought like that, i'd be disgusted
--------------------------------------------
UserPostedImage


A wise man once said
---------------------------------------------
You are weak, pathetic and immature..............I would have d
Gravedigga
16 years ago

3,500 deaths in this war compared to deaths of other wars or circumstances may seem small, but this war was unnecessary and wrong, and 1 death for an unjust war is too many.

"IronMan" wrote:


Tell that to the people of Iraq that were being raped, tortured, and slaughtered by Hussein.
When you see people being slaughtered by a mad man, and your response is to turn your back and act like it isn't happening, is that the right response?

"Cheesey" wrote:


They captured Hussein 6 years ago. Why are we still there? What is the exit strategy?

I DO appreciate the efforts by our military servicemen and women.

"cm_awesome" wrote:



Think of it in terms of a gang, like maybe the bloods and crips.

You go over to a rival gang leader and kill him. The war does not stop, it only gets worse where they retaliate even harder than you. Only way for one gang to win is to wipe out all the threats in the other gang neighborhood and put your own people in there or let the good people there take over.
--------------------------------------------
UserPostedImage


A wise man once said
---------------------------------------------
You are weak, pathetic and immature..............I would have d
Nonstopdrivel
16 years ago
I should clarify that I wasn't accusing the United States military of slaughtering the intelligentsia of Iraq. I was saying that in removing the stabilizing force that was Saddam Hussein, we helped unleash a wave of reprisals that had been stewing for decades. The Shi'a, who are largely uneducated herdsmen, have been targeting Sunni professionals with a vengeance. Classic class warfare and heartbreaking to behold.
UserPostedImage
Gravedigga
16 years ago

Gravedigga, if you want to organize a mercenary force on your own dime to invade all the countries you feel aren't getting it right, you go right ahead. You have every right to perform whatever activist functions you want with your own money. It's not the rightful role of our military to impose our will -- our perception of what is right and wrong -- on every country just because we want to. And we don't have the resources to do it even if it were the right thing to do.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



It's not that, it's the hypocrisy. We say, he has WMD's. We cant find them. We say we have to liberate the people of IRAQ, we did it. We say we have to make sure their government is in place and safe before we can leave. We dont even publicly recognize what is going on in Darfur. During the Olympics, we were all hush hush about it politically because China is involved in teh exploitation. Threatening to expel athletes if they bring up the issue. What the hell?

Why'd we go to Vietnam? Why'd we go to Iraq in the first place in 1990? Why do we help out Cubans and give different rules for the Hatians?

Everyone wants to talk immigration and complain yet we dont mind the modern day slavery with mass amounts of Mexicans working for peanuts doing jobs Americans wont do for the money.

Just amazes me how openly full of shit politicians and the news can be in this day and get away with it.
--------------------------------------------
UserPostedImage


A wise man once said
---------------------------------------------
You are weak, pathetic and immature..............I would have d
Fan Shout
beast (12h) : But the Return from IR designations had to be applied by the 53 man cutdown.
beast (12h) : It's a new rule, so it's not clear, but my understanding was that they could be IR'd at any time
Mucky Tundra (17h) : *had to be IRed at 53
Mucky Tundra (17h) : beast, I thought the designate return from IR players had to be IR at cutdowns to 53, not before
beast (18h) : It's a brand new rule, either last season or this season, prior, all pre-season IRs were done for the season
beast (18h) : But the Packers would have to use one for their return from IR spots on him, when they cut down to 53.
beast (18h) : I think the NFL recently changed the IR rules, so maybe the season might not be over for OL Glover.
Zero2Cool (19h) : Packers star Howton, first NFLPA prez, dies at 95 😔
dfosterf (22h) : Apparently it is too complicated for several to follow your simple instructions, but I digress
dfosterf (22h) : Zero- Did you see what I posted about Voice of Reason and his wife? She posted over at fleaflicker that they are both "In"
Zero2Cool (7-Aug) : Well, not crazy, it makes sense. Crazy I didn't notice/find it earlier
Zero2Cool (7-Aug) : it's crazy how one stored procedure to get data bogged everything down for speed here
dfosterf (7-Aug) : to herd cats or goldfish without a bowl. They reminded me of the annual assembly of our fantasy league
dfosterf (7-Aug) : out on a field trip, outfitting them with little yellow smocks. Most of the little folk were well behaved, but several were like trying
dfosterf (7-Aug) : Yesterday my wife and I spent the afternoon on the waterfront here in Alexandria, Va. A daycare company took about 15 three/four year olds
wpr (7-Aug) : seems faster. yay
dfosterf (7-Aug) : Wife of reason posted on the in/out thread on fleaflicker that both she and vor are in
Zero2Cool (7-Aug) : This page was generated in 0.135 seconds.
Mucky Tundra (7-Aug) : Tbh, I can never tell the difference in speed unless it's completely shitting the bed
Zero2Cool (7-Aug) : Sure does feel like site is more snappy
Zero2Cool (6-Aug) : I thought that was the Lions OL
Mucky Tundra (6-Aug) : Travis Glover placed on IR; seasons over for him
Zero2Cool (6-Aug) : found bad sql in database, maybe site faster now?
dfosterf (5-Aug) : I'm going to call that a good move.
Zero2Cool (4-Aug) : Packers sign CB Corey Ballentine
Zero2Cool (4-Aug) : I'm not sure how to kill the draft order just yet so it's not so confusing.
Mucky Tundra (4-Aug) : *to be able
Mucky Tundra (4-Aug) : and because it's not a dynasty league (which makes a lot more sense to be ability to trade picks)
Mucky Tundra (4-Aug) : Oh I know; I was just exploring and it blew my mind that you could trade picks because of the whole reordering thing
Mucky Tundra (4-Aug) : Zero, I think I preferred my offer: your 1st for my 15th rounder
Zero2Cool (4-Aug) : Keep in mind, we do a draft reorder once all members locked in
Zero2Cool (4-Aug) : You can have my 12th Rd for your 2nd round
Mucky Tundra (4-Aug) : Hey i didn't know we could trade picks in fantasy
Mucky Tundra (3-Aug) : Update: Rock has tried a cheese curd, promises it's not his last
Zero2Cool (3-Aug) : watch it!! lol
Mucky Tundra (3-Aug) : you're right, we never did leave, the site just went down :P
Mucky Tundra (3-Aug) : Rock claims to have never eaten a cheese curd
Zero2Cool (3-Aug) : We did not leave.
Mucky Tundra (3-Aug) : Family Night! WE ARE SO BACK!
Mucky Tundra (2-Aug) : To this day, I'm still miffed about his 4 TD game against Dallas on Thanksgiving going to waste
Martha Careful (2-Aug) : Congratulations Sterling Sharpe. He was terrific and I loved watching him play.
beast (2-Aug) : I believe it's technically against the CBA rules, but Jerry just calls it a simple unofficial chat... and somehow gets away with it.
beast (2-Aug) : Jerry Jones is infamous for ̶n̶e̶g̶o̶t̶i̶a̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ chatting with players one on one... and going around the agent.
Mucky Tundra (1-Aug) : Oo just saw a blurb saying that Dallas negotiated directly with Parsons and not through his agent
Mucky Tundra (1-Aug) : I assumed that both guys will get paid, just a matter of when or how we get there
Zero2Cool (1-Aug) : McLaurin nor Micah going anywhere. They will get money
Mucky Tundra (1-Aug) : the Synder years or do they take care of one of their own?
Mucky Tundra (1-Aug) : Do the Commanders risk losing a top WR with an emerging QB just because he's turning 30 and potentially risk damaging the rebuild from
Mucky Tundra (1-Aug) : Turns 30 this September, plays at a high level and Washington has some cap space I believe
Mucky Tundra (1-Aug) : More interesting is Washington with Terry McLaurin
Please sign in to use Fan Shout
2025 Packers Schedule
Sunday, Sep 7 @ 3:25 PM
LIONS
Thursday, Sep 11 @ 7:15 PM
COMMANDERS
Sunday, Sep 21 @ 12:00 PM
Browns
Sunday, Sep 28 @ 7:20 PM
Cowboys
Sunday, Oct 12 @ 3:25 PM
BENGALS
Sunday, Oct 19 @ 3:25 PM
Cardinals
Sunday, Oct 26 @ 7:20 PM
Steelers
Sunday, Nov 2 @ 12:00 PM
PANTHERS
Monday, Nov 10 @ 7:15 PM
EAGLES
Sunday, Nov 16 @ 12:00 PM
Giants
Sunday, Nov 23 @ 12:00 PM
VIKINGS
Thursday, Nov 27 @ 12:00 PM
Lions
Sunday, Dec 7 @ 12:00 PM
BEARS
Sunday, Dec 14 @ 3:25 PM
Broncos
Friday, Dec 19 @ 11:00 PM
Bears
Friday, Dec 26 @ 11:00 PM
RAVENS
Saturday, Jan 3 @ 11:00 PM
Vikings
Recent Topics
2h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

21h / Around The NFL / Zero2Cool

23h / Fantasy Sports Talk / packerfanoutwest

8-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

7-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

5-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

4-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / bboystyle

3-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

3-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

3-Aug / Feedback, Suggestions and Issues / Zero2Cool

2-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

2-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

28-Jul / Random Babble / Zero2Cool

28-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

28-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

Headlines
Copyright © 2006 - 2025 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.