mi_keys
15 years ago

Joe Flacco and Matt Ryan ARE there. They are on winning teams, winning games and putting together great drives (i.e. Flacco v. Favre - he put them ahead until Favre came back and then again after that).

"RedSoxExcel" wrote:



Wait, wait, wait. So Flacco gets credit for coming back against the Vikings until the Vikings took the lead and won. Let's see when they were down 27-10 Flacco had one drive pretty much on his own to get it to 27-17. The Vikings then got a field goal to make it 30-17. He then had a drive where he dumped it off to Ray Rice in the flat who broke 3 tackles to get 62 yards setting up another touchdown. He then handed off to Ray Rice for a 33 yard touchdown on the only play of another drive to make it 31-30. Credit to him for his part but Ray Rice was a much bigger factor in that attempted comeback against the Queens than Flacco was. Then Flacco did a good job to get them in field goal range but the kicker missed what would have been the game winning field goal.

Oh wait, that sounds strangely familiar. Let's see, Crosby missed two game winning field goals last year which would have counted as wins for Rodgers. Rodgers doesn't get any credit for those. There were also times when Rodgers gave us the lead in the closing minutes only for the defense to choke it away (Carolina for instance). We don't give Rodgers credit for that.

Flacco has been in three close games this year and lost them all. Two of them his team had a legitimate shot at winning in the final moments with a last minute score but they failed to do so. And to be fair, neither were his fault (missed field goal against Minnesota and I believe a dropped 4th down pass which would have given them a first down against New England). But based on the criteria for judging quarterbacks you've been using for Rodgers, Flacco "needs to win some games." They have the same record this year, and Rodgers is the only one with a comeback.

Last year, the Ravens only won two close games (won the rest by 9+ points). Week one against Cincinatti in which they had the lead the entire second half and in the playoffs against Tennessee where they broke a deadlock in the fourth quarter with a field goal on a drive that was largely rushing. They lost close games against Pittsburgh twice and Tennessee in the regular season. Baltimore got the ball first in overtime the first time against Pittsburgh. Against Tennessee, Flacco was picked off twice in the final two minutes in attempts to bring them back from down 3. Against Pittsburgh the second time Flacco was picked off in the final minute while down 4 in an attempt to bring the Ravens back.

Let's look at Matt Ryan now. This year they've had two games that they've won by a single score (Carolina and Chicago). Neither required a comeback, though they did score to break a deadlock with Chicago in the 4th after getting a short field from a great return. In both cases their defense held on to win. Against New Orleans, they eventually lost by 8, but had a chance to take the lead with 8 minutes left only for Matt Ryan to throw a pick at the one yard line.

Last year, Atlanta won close games against Green Bay, Chicago, San Diego, Tampa, Minnesota, and St. Louis. Green Bay was down by 10, we drove to cut it to 3 and gave a defense three timeouts and a chance to stop Turner, they didn't. Chicago was a great throw from Ryan and then a long field goal on the last play to win. Against San Diego they had the lead the entire second half. They won in overtime against Tampa with a field goal on a drive that was almost entirely running (Ryan also fumbled but one of his lineman recovered). Against Minnesota they had the lead the entire second half. Against St. Louis they fell behind and the drive to take the lead was all rushing plays except one 13 yard pass. Ryan also failed to come from behind against Denver and New Orleans last year when he had the ball and a chance to score. Had a poor playoff game too in the biggest game of his career to date.

So looking at that he has three comeback wins, two of which were almost exclusively compliments of Atlanta's running game. The other he made a single, yet beautiful pass to set up a long field goal. So no, 24-20 down I don't want Matt Ryan over Rodgers because apparently he relies on his running game (which we don't have) or long field goals (Crosby can, but is inconsistent) for his comebacks.

In short, neither Ryan nor Flacco have been all that impressive leading comeback victories with their arm. Ryan's benefited in a few cases against poor teams thanks to the running game. He does deserve credit for the one against the Bears. Flacco doesn't really have a come-from-behind victory. Give me Rodgers.

Anyway, where's Non to tell us that comebacks are the most overrated statistic for a quarterback. To paraphrase him, don't fuck up early on and you don't need to come back.

sources:
my memory
pro-football-reference.com
NFL.com gamecenters
Born and bred a cheesehead
WhiskeySam
15 years ago
Quick point on the Ryan INT late against NO. That play was a phenomenal defensive play by Vilma. If he doesn't climb the ladder to tip that pass, Gonzalez catches the TD. Ryan and Flacco keep their teams in those games. But ultimately, you're right, it is a team game.

Let's face it, QBs get too much credit both ways for wins/losses. The first several years of Tom Brady's career were thanks to Adam Vinatieri. If Vinatieri didn't come through every single time, Brady is nothing but an ordinary QB who can't lead his team to win the big game those first few seasons.
Nemo me impune lacessit
mi_keys
15 years ago

Quick point on the Ryan INT late against NO. That play was a phenomenal defensive play by Vilma. If he doesn't climb the ladder to tip that pass, Gonzalez catches the TD. Ryan and Flacco keep their teams in those games. But ultimately, you're right, it is a team game.

Let's face it, QBs get too much credit both ways for wins/losses. The first several years of Tom Brady's career were thanks to Adam Vinatieri. If Vinatieri didn't come through every single time, Brady is nothing but an ordinary QB who can't lead his team to win the big game those first few seasons.

"WhiskeySam" wrote:



So true, and I'm not trying to get on Ryan and Flacco's case because I think they're both very good quarterbacks, especially given their age. However, I am trying to point out this whole argument about Rodgers not being able to carry teams and be clutch while saying Ryan and Flacco have ice in their veins is completely overblown and to an extent, completely inaccurate. Right now we've lost three games against good teams because we have been inconsistent (Rodgers included) as a team and have at times struggled in the trenches.
Born and bred a cheesehead
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
15 years ago
Assume it's the day before training camp. Then:

1. Would you trade Rodgers for Flacco straight up? I wouldn't.
2. Would you trade Rodgers for Ryan straight up? I wouldn't do that either.

Whenever I get to the "who's better?" question, that's my default question, Would I make a one-for-one trade for my team? Now, I realize that there are other ways to evaluate the relative quality of players. But since the only thing I really care about is the Packers, it seems to work pretty good. For me, anyway.

So, IMO, who's the better of the three. Rodgers.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
WhiskeySam
15 years ago

Quick point on the Ryan INT late against NO. That play was a phenomenal defensive play by Vilma. If he doesn't climb the ladder to tip that pass, Gonzalez catches the TD. Ryan and Flacco keep their teams in those games. But ultimately, you're right, it is a team game.

Let's face it, QBs get too much credit both ways for wins/losses. The first several years of Tom Brady's career were thanks to Adam Vinatieri. If Vinatieri didn't come through every single time, Brady is nothing but an ordinary QB who can't lead his team to win the big game those first few seasons.

"mi_keys" wrote:



So true, and I'm not trying to get on Ryan and Flacco's case because I think they're both very good quarterbacks, especially given their age. However, I am trying to point out this whole argument about Rodgers not being able to carry teams and be clutch while saying Ryan and Flacco have ice in their veins is completely overblown and to an extent, completely inaccurate. Right now we've lost three games against good teams because we have been inconsistent (Rodgers included) as a team and have at times struggled in the trenches.

"WhiskeySam" wrote:



That is absolutely correct. Rodgers is not the problem. Could he do more? Sure. There's always room to improve. But he is not the reason this team is struggling against quality opponents.
Nemo me impune lacessit
djcubez
15 years ago
Good arguments on both sides but let's look at W-L and QB stats.

QB Rating - Rodgers (110.4), Flacco (95.6), Ryan (82.4)
Touchdowns - Rodgers (14), Flacco (12), Ryan (12)
Interceptions - Rodgers (2), Flacco (5), Ryan (9)
Sacks - Ryan (9), Flacco (12), Rodgers (31)

In actual throwing statistics Rodgers is first, Flacco is second and Ryan is third. In sacks, which are mostly the fault of the offensive line and not the QB (although in Rodgers case a good amount can be applied to him), Ryan and Flacco are obviously shown to have better protection.

Now let's look at the offensive attack of all three teams to see who has the most support from the run game and who leads the highest ranked passing offense.

Rushing Offense - Baltimore (10th), Packers (16th), Falcons (17th)
Passing Offense - Packers (9th), Ravens (10th), Falcons (14th)

Let's also take a look at the position players on the offense of all three teams.

ATL - RB Michael Turner (554 yds 8TD), RB Jerious Norwood (78 yds 0TD), WR Roddy White (543 yds 6TD), WR Michael Jenkins (290 yds 0TD), TE Tony Gonzalez (393 yds 3TD)
BAL - RB Ray Rice (525 yds 4TD), RB Willis Mcgahee (201 yds 5TD), WR Derrick Mason (421 yds 4TD), WR Mark Clayton (303 yds 2TD), TE Todd Heap (278 2TD)
GB - RB Ryan Grant (525 yds 3TD), RB Brandon Jackson (37 yds 0TD), WR Donald Driver (542 yds 3TD), WR Greg Jennings (437 yds 2TD), TE Donald Lee (176 yds 0TD)

Clearly Baltimore has the better RB situation followed by Atlanta and Green Bay who are pretty close despite the pretty obvious differences between Turner and Grant. As far as WR's, Atlanta has the best #1 WR of the three teams in Roddy White but Green Bay by far has the better 2 receiver tandem. In tight ends Gonzalez is in his own tier, Heap is a decent producer but has struggled with injuries lately and Lee doesn't even factor in the game for GB (although Finley might when he's healthy). Clearly the supporting cast in skill players is quite even.

Lastly let's take a look at the record of all three teams because isn't that what we're all basing our analysis on?

Team Record - Tied at 4-3

All three QB's teams are 4-3.

So, through all the comparisons what have we learned? The only glaring statistical differences are the sacks total and passing stats. Rodgers is clearly the better passer statistically while being behind a truly atrocious line. And while Rodgers hasn't won in the clutch as much as people would like he has given his team a good chance at winning close games. This is where my bias comes in. I'd take Rodgers easily because when he does start winning the closes ones (it has to happen soon right?) he'll undoubtedly be the better QB.

That said, all three QB's have a bright future in this league and it really does no good making the comparison.
macbob
15 years ago

Good arguments on both sides but let's look at W-L and QB stats.

QB Rating - Rodgers (110.4), Flacco (95.6), Ryan (82.4)
Touchdowns - Rodgers (14), Flacco (12), Ryan (12)
Interceptions - Rodgers (2), Flacco (5), Ryan (9)
Sacks - Ryan (9), Flacco (12), Rodgers (31)

In actual throwing statistics Rodgers is first, Flacco is second and Ryan is third. In sacks, which are mostly the fault of the offensive line and not the QB (although in Rodgers case a good amount can be applied to him), Ryan and Flacco are obviously shown to have better protection.

Now let's look at the offensive attack of all three teams to see who has the most support from the run game and who leads the highest ranked passing offense.

Rushing Offense - Baltimore (10th), Packers (16th), Falcons (17th)
Passing Offense - Packers (9th), Ravens (10th), Falcons (14th)

Let's also take a look at the position players on the offense of all three teams.

ATL - RB Michael Turner (554 yds 8TD), RB Jerious Norwood (78 yds 0TD), WR Roddy White (543 yds 6TD), WR Michael Jenkins (290 yds 0TD), TE Tony Gonzalez (393 yds 3TD)
BAL - RB Ray Rice (525 yds 4TD), RB Willis Mcgahee (201 yds 5TD), WR Derrick Mason (421 yds 4TD), WR Mark Clayton (303 yds 2TD), TE Todd Heap (278 2TD)
GB - RB Ryan Grant (525 yds 3TD), RB Brandon Jackson (37 yds 0TD), WR Donald Driver (542 yds 3TD), WR Greg Jennings (437 yds 2TD), TE Donald Lee (176 yds 0TD)

Clearly Baltimore has the better RB situation followed by Atlanta and Green Bay who are pretty close despite the pretty obvious differences between Turner and Grant. As far as WR's, Atlanta has the best #1 WR of the three teams in Roddy White but Green Bay by far has the better 2 receiver tandem. In tight ends Gonzalez is in his own tier, Heap is a decent producer but has struggled with injuries lately and Lee doesn't even factor in the game for GB (although Finley might when he's healthy). Clearly the supporting cast in skill players is quite even.

Lastly let's take a look at the record of all three teams because isn't that what we're all basing our analysis on?

Team Record - Tied at 4-3

All three QB's teams are 4-3.

So, through all the comparisons what have we learned? The only glaring statistical differences are the sacks total and passing stats. Rodgers is clearly the better passer statistically while being behind a truly atrocious line. And while Rodgers hasn't won in the clutch as much as people would like he has given his team a good chance at winning close games. This is where my bias comes in. I'd take Rodgers easily because when he does start winning the closes ones (it has to happen soon right?) he'll undoubtedly be the better QB.

That said, all three QB's have a bright future in this league and it really does no good making the comparison.

"djcubez" wrote:



Agreed. They're not even good comparisons, because there are a boatload of more factors into the W/L record than the above stats. There's penalties (which just make you want to butt your head up against something), inability to cover kickoffs, etc that put your offense in a hole time and time again.

It's a team game, W/Ls are team W/Ls. For the QB to get that come-from-behind pull-it-out-of-your-butt victory, the defense/special teams, etc have to make plays/stops.
porky88
15 years ago
It's apples and oranges right now with the young quarterbacks because it's so early in their careers. Some probably made an arguement for Drew Bledsoe over Brett Favre back in the mid 90s. Obviously they were wrong.

I've stated my opinion on young QBs on here before. I haven't changed much at all except with Joe Flacco. I'm becoming more and more sold on him every day. I think Matt Ryan is going to be special. I don't care about numbers that much because when I look at Ryan, I see someone who has the ability to be a special player. He's really the total package on and off the field. He has a strong arm, he's accurate, poised, studies like Peyton Manning and he can make an off balance throw like Brett Favre. It's just a matter of time until he explodes as the next golden boy of the NFL IMO.

I would rate Rodgers maybe right behind him. The more I watch of Rodgers and Cutler, the more I'm becoming more sold on Rodgers is the better QB. I think Cutler is a tremendous talent, but he needs the proper coaching and he needs to do some growing up. Maybe Josh McDaniels saw something and to be fair, reports suggest Minnesota wasn't sold on him either and right now everything they've touched has been gold. They didn't pursue him for a reason.

I still take Matt Ryan No. 1 as you can tell, but I don't think anyone can say much negative about Rodgers right now. He holds the ball too long in situations, but only because he's being very careful not turn the ball over. He'll learn from that. He's showed a lot in my view and unforunately his teammates haven't played on the same level he's playing at. Rodgers is ahead of most of his teammates in every phase you can think of. That's what makes me feel somewhat at ease with the decision to go forward with him.
http://www.row12.com/ 

WhiskeySam
15 years ago

It's apples and oranges right now with the young quarterbacks because it's so early in their careers. Some probably made an arguement for Drew Bledsoe over Brett Favre back in the mid 90s. Obviously they were wrong.

I've stated my opinion on young QBs on here before. I haven't changed much at all except with Joe Flacco. I'm becoming more and more sold on him every day. I think Matt Ryan is going to be special. I don't care about numbers that much because when I look at Ryan, I see someone who has the ability to be a special player. He's really the total package on and off the field. He has a strong arm, he's accurate, poised, studies like Peyton Manning and he can make an off balance throw like Brett Favre. It's just a matter of time until he explodes as the next golden boy of the NFL IMO.

I would rate Rodgers maybe right behind him. The more I watch of Rodgers and Cutler, the more I'm becoming more sold on Rodgers is the better QB. I think Cutler is a tremendous talent, but he needs the proper coaching and he needs to do some growing up. Maybe Josh McDaniels saw something and to be fair, reports suggest Minnesota wasn't sold on him either and right now everything they've touched has been gold. They didn't pursue him for a reason.

I still take Matt Ryan No. 1 as you can tell, but I don't think anyone can say much negative about Rodgers right now. He holds the ball too long in situations, but only because he's being very careful not turn the ball over. He'll learn from that. He's showed a lot in my view and unforunately his teammates haven't played on the same level he's playing at. Rodgers is ahead of most of his teammates in every phase you can think of. That's what makes me feel somewhat at ease with the decision to go forward with him.

"porky88" wrote:



That's a fair assessment of Cutler. His immaturity is a big part of why he hasn't progressed.
Nemo me impune lacessit
brnt247
15 years ago
Aaron Rodgers is a better QB than all four of them. They can't produce, make the athletic throws, or make plays with their feet like Aaron can. Aaron is great on third down and doesn't turn the ball over.
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