Brian Gutekunst / Draft· Page 2

buckeyepackfan
Veteran Member

a year ago

🤦

LOL. Always makes me laugh how people buck picking one thing as if there's some consequences to their selection. I get it though. I just gotta laugh.

Anyhow, glad folks are discussing regardless!!!

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool

I chose developement since I had to chose one.
I just think fans expectations are way to high.
I see where The Raiders just fired their GM and HC.
That makes 12 HC's in 20 years.
How's that been working out for them?

Let's look at Baker Mayfield, #1 pick, the only time he played in the same system for more than 1 year, he took The Browns to the playoffs and beat The Steelers and Big Ben.
He gets hurt The next year, instead of sitting him down, The Browns , in all their infinite wisdom allowed him to play hurt, then decided to spend 230mil on a shiny new toy, who has played 5 games in 2 years.
How's that working for them?
Baker is now in Tampa and have them above :500
As hard as this season has been and probably will be, I'm not worried or panicking.
Mid-season is not the time to "CLEAN HOUSE".
Still 10 games left, evaluations will be made at the end of the year.

I was addicted to The Hokey Pokey, but I turned myself around!

beast
Select Member

a year ago

#12

I understand what you are saying. Clearly Gute has missed on acquiring talent. But your example is not proof.

You've picked 3 players that were selected by 3 GMs. If Gute hit on every other selection and those GMs failed every time what did it prove? That Gute is human and can't get it right 100% of the time.

We know that's not the real answer either. That's why we would have to look at all the GMs and all their selections for the past 5 years.
If we did we know he wouldn't be #1. But he also wouldn't be #32.

Originally Posted by: wpr

You don't need a peer reviewed study to know what bad is....

No I don't know exactly what number he is, but that doesn't matter.

Does it seem like he's been in the top or bottom half? That's all you need, and I think it's been pretty clear.

I'm not saying fire him, just the team ABSOLUTELY NEEDs better linemen scouting, which the fastest method of that might include firing and/OR hiring of people.

go.pack.go.
Veteran Member

a year ago

#13

🤦

LOL. Always makes me laugh how people buck picking one thing as if there's some consequences to their selection. I get it though. I just gotta laugh.

Anyhow, glad folks are discussing regardless!!!

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool

Go on to read the rest of my post and you’ll see which option I chose.

porky88
Veteran Member

a year ago

#14

This might be a year of self reflection. I don't think he touches Ted Thompson as a talent evaluator.

We should be relying on the 2018-2020 classes as the foundation of our team. He just whiffed majorly on those drafts.

2018

Jaire Alexander was a good pick. Only player left on the roster. He's regressing since signing his last contract. I suspect his back issues are the cause of his disappointing play. Nevertheless, is anyone else concern by how he's talking?

MVS was a good pick for the round. However, they wanted him to be a No. 2 and he was never anything more than a No. 3/4. That's a great example of them over evaluating their talent.

Josh Jackson, Oren Burks, J'Mon Moore, Cole Madison, and JK Scott were all selected between Alexander and MVS. All those guys are busts.

2019

Rashan Gary is a stud. Glad he got a second contract and he'll be the cornerstone for the defense this decade.

Darnell Savage Jr is a bust. He regressed every year since his rookie season.

Elgton Jenkins was a stud. I think he's regressed since his knee injury. You can't blame Gutey for that, but they aren't getting the kind of play I think they thought they were going to get when they signed him to a second contract. I have a hunch he could be back to form next year.

The rest of the draft is full of busts. No late-round gems either, which the good teams (like the Packers) have always been able to find.

2020

Jordan Love - Let's give him the season, but his play in the five losses this season look a lot like his play in the 2021 loss to Kansas City when he filled in for Rodgers. That's not a good sign.

AJ Dillon - Another example of overrating your guy. I think he's a bust. The guy averages 3 yards per carry. He barley averaged over 4 last year. He doesn't have good vision. I think he runs into tackles way too much. As a second round pick, he should have emerged by now as the clear cut No. 1 back, and should have received or be in line for a second contract. He'll be off the team next year.

Josiah Deguara - Another bust in the 3rd round. Ted Thompson found Jermichael Finley in the 3rd round at TE, while Gutey found Jace Stoneberger and Josiah Deguara.

Jon Runyan Jr - He probably gets a second contract. He's a serviceable guard. Every team has a guy like him as a starter. He's someone you can depend on to play, but you wouldn't want him to be one of your 5 best players on offense.

I'll hold off on the 2021-2023 draft classes, but the early returns aren't looking good.

Eric Stokes is injury prone, and plays slower than his time speed.
Josh Myers has been more bad than good. I do agree that he's opened up some holes this year, however. Nevertheless, Creed Humphrey - who was widely seen as the top center of that draft - was selected a pick after him. Creed is an all pro center.
Quay Walker is fast. That's it. He tackles too high and the mental mistakes are disconcerting.
Devonte Wyatt I like. It takes DL longer to adjust to the game (unless your Kenny Clark).
Christian Watson seems more like a No. 2 at best. He has great straight-line speed. Not a prolific route runner. I do think he's been open this season, but Love isn't recognizing the play fast enough.

Again, Gutey isn't going anywhere. The Packers are a too discipline as an organization to overreact. However, I think there's a quick trigger in placing blame on coaching (Matt LaFleur & Joe Barry) when there should be some self reflection on what kind of players the GM is drafting

http://www.row12.com/

Martha Careful
Member

a year ago

#15

This might be a year of self reflection. I don't think he touches Ted Thompson as a talent evaluator.

We should be relying on the 2018-2020 classes as the foundation of our team. He just whiffed majorly on those drafts.

....

Again, Gutey isn't going anywhere. The Packers are a too discipline as an organization to overreact. However, I think there's a quick trigger in placing blame on coaching (Matt LaFleur & Joe Barry) when there should be some self reflection on what kind of players the GM is drafting

Originally Posted by: porky88

An excellent and thoughtful post.

I know Zero2Cool with disagree with the philosophy of filling needs in the draft, but regardless, we rarely do that successfully....and they try to. i

If the Love pick does not work out, It will be the end of Gutey. He had a HOF quarterback and the last 3 years surrounded him with marginal wide receiver talent (sans Adams).

Also, we draft too many low Wonderlic guys in early rounds. They are high achievers with simpler schemes in college. But when they have to think, they either don't, and make bad decisions, or think to slowly and mitigate their physical advantages.

Further, teams competing for championships should be built from the inside-out, not outside-in. We have not been championship caliber for a few years (we were simply overperforming with a HOF QB) and will continue to be out of the running until we significantly upgrade our OL.
As you examine this list of draft selections.....how many have them have made significant contributions to any team after they left??

Go Packers!!!!

bboystyle
Member

a year ago

#16

This might be a year of self reflection. I don't think he touches Ted Thompson as a talent evaluator.

We should be relying on the 2018-2020 classes as the foundation of our team. He just whiffed majorly on those drafts.

2018

Jaire Alexander was a good pick. Only player left on the roster. He's regressing since signing his last contract. I suspect his back issues are the cause of his disappointing play. Nevertheless, is anyone else concern by how he's talking?

MVS was a good pick for the round. However, they wanted him to be a No. 2 and he was never anything more than a No. 3/4. That's a great example of them over evaluating their talent.

Josh Jackson, Oren Burks, J'Mon Moore, Cole Madison, and JK Scott were all selected between Alexander and MVS. All those guys are busts.

2019

Rashan Gary is a stud. Glad he got a second contract and he'll be the cornerstone for the defense this decade.

Darnell Savage Jr is a bust. He regressed every year since his rookie season.

Elgton Jenkins was a stud. I think he's regressed since his knee injury. You can't blame Gutey for that, but they aren't getting the kind of play I think they thought they were going to get when they signed him to a second contract. I have a hunch he could be back to form next year.

The rest of the draft is full of busts. No late-round gems either, which the good teams (like the Packers) have always been able to find.

2020

Jordan Love - Let's give him the season, but his play in the five losses this season look a lot like his play in the 2021 loss to Kansas City when he filled in for Rodgers. That's not a good sign.

AJ Dillon - Another example of overrating your guy. I think he's a bust. The guy averages 3 yards per carry. He barley averaged over 4 last year. He doesn't have good vision. I think he runs into tackles way too much. As a second round pick, he should have emerged by now as the clear cut No. 1 back, and should have received or be in line for a second contract. He'll be off the team next year.

Josiah Deguara - Another bust in the 3rd round. Ted Thompson found Jermichael Finley in the 3rd round at TE, while Gutey found Jace Stoneberger and Josiah Deguara.

Jon Runyan Jr - He probably gets a second contract. He's a serviceable guard. Every team has a guy like him as a starter. He's someone you can depend on to play, but you wouldn't want him to be one of your 5 best players on offense.

I'll hold off on the 2021-2023 draft classes, but the early returns aren't looking good.

Eric Stokes is injury prone, and plays slower than his time speed.
Josh Myers has been more bad than good. I do agree that he's opened up some holes this year, however. Nevertheless, Creed Humphrey - who was widely seen as the top center of that draft - was selected a pick after him. Creed is an all pro center.
Quay Walker is fast. That's it. He tackles too high and the mental mistakes are disconcerting.
Devonte Wyatt I like. It takes DL longer to adjust to the game (unless your Kenny Clark).
Christian Watson seems more like a No. 2 at best. He has great straight-line speed. Not a prolific route runner. I do think he's been open this season, but Love isn't recognizing the play fast enough.

Again, Gutey isn't going anywhere. The Packers are a too discipline as an organization to overreact. However, I think there's a quick trigger in placing blame on coaching (Matt LaFleur & Joe Barry) when there should be some self reflection on what kind of players the GM is drafting

Originally Posted by: porky88

im sorry but Quay Walker is a beast and looks like he dont even belong on this team. He is a reliable tackler and is our best defensive player including Gary.

Zero2Cool
Elite Member Topic Starter

a year ago

#17

An excellent and thoughtful post.

I know Zero2Cool with disagree with the philosophy of filling needs in the draft, but regardless, we rarely do that successfully....and they try to.

Originally Posted by: Martha Careful

It's not me who disagree with with the philosophy. It's winning franchises. They use the draft for the future. Plug in free Agents for needs. Rookies take time to develop. By the time they develop that position might not be a need. As Ted Thompson said, your need in April isn't usually your need in December. Brilliant statement.

If you are drafting top five top ten and have a need. I'd say go for it! But bottom of the round? Nah, stick to the common philosophy of winners.

And we need OL and DL. So draft them all!! Haha

Zero2Cool
Elite Member Topic Starter

a year ago

#18

im sorry but Quay Walker is a beast and looks like he dont even belong on this team. He is a reliable tackler and is our best defensive player including Gary.

Originally Posted by: bboystyle

Quay has played well in season two. I wanna see him rush the passer again like last season. He wrecked havoc.

Martha Careful
Member

a year ago

#19

im sorry but Quay Walker is a beast and looks like he dont even belong on this team. He is a reliable tackler and is our best defensive player including Gary.

Originally Posted by: bboystyle

He may be the best potential player on this team, but he has not played like that. He has misses run fits often and is slow to realize who is in his zone when we are in zone coverage.

He is not even the best linebacker on this team.

He may be the an All-Pro someday but he has been mistake prone.

Go Packers!!!!

wpr
Preferred Member

a year ago

#20

This might be a year of self reflection. I don't think he touches Ted Thompson as a talent evaluator.

We should be relying on the 2018-2020 classes as the foundation of our team. He just whiffed majorly on those drafts.

2018

Jaire Alexander was a good pick. Only player left on the roster. He's regressing since signing his last contract. I suspect his back issues are the cause of his disappointing play. Nevertheless, is anyone else concern by how he's talking?

MVS was a good pick for the round. However, they wanted him to be a No. 2 and he was never anything more than a No. 3/4. That's a great example of them over evaluating their talent.

Josh Jackson, Oren Burks, J'Mon Moore, Cole Madison, and JK Scott were all selected between Alexander and MVS. All those guys are busts.

2019

Rashan Gary is a stud. Glad he got a second contract and he'll be the cornerstone for the defense this decade.

Darnell Savage Jr is a bust. He regressed every year since his rookie season.

Elgton Jenkins was a stud. I think he's regressed since his knee injury. You can't blame Gutey for that, but they aren't getting the kind of play I think they thought they were going to get when they signed him to a second contract. I have a hunch he could be back to form next year.

The rest of the draft is full of busts. No late-round gems either, which the good teams (like the Packers) have always been able to find.

2020

Jordan Love - Let's give him the season, but his play in the five losses this season look a lot like his play in the 2021 loss to Kansas City when he filled in for Rodgers. That's not a good sign.

AJ Dillon - Another example of overrating your guy. I think he's a bust. The guy averages 3 yards per carry. He barley averaged over 4 last year. He doesn't have good vision. I think he runs into tackles way too much. As a second round pick, he should have emerged by now as the clear cut No. 1 back, and should have received or be in line for a second contract. He'll be off the team next year.

Josiah Deguara - Another bust in the 3rd round. Ted Thompson found Jermichael Finley in the 3rd round at TE, while Gutey found Jace Stoneberger and Josiah Deguara.

Jon Runyan Jr - He probably gets a second contract. He's a serviceable guard. Every team has a guy like him as a starter. He's someone you can depend on to play, but you wouldn't want him to be one of your 5 best players on offense.

I'll hold off on the 2021-2023 draft classes, but the early returns aren't looking good.

Eric Stokes is injury prone, and plays slower than his time speed.
Josh Myers has been more bad than good. I do agree that he's opened up some holes this year, however. Nevertheless, Creed Humphrey - who was widely seen as the top center of that draft - was selected a pick after him. Creed is an all pro center.
Quay Walker is fast. That's it. He tackles too high and the mental mistakes are disconcerting.
Devonte Wyatt I like. It takes DL longer to adjust to the game (unless your Kenny Clark).
Christian Watson seems more like a No. 2 at best. He has great straight-line speed. Not a prolific route runner. I do think he's been open this season, but Love isn't recognizing the play fast enough.

Again, Gutey isn't going anywhere. The Packers are a too discipline as an organization to overreact. However, I think there's a quick trigger in placing blame on coaching (Matt LaFleur & Joe Barry) when there should be some self reflection on what kind of players the GM is drafting

Originally Posted by: porky88

Porky you have some of the best posts year after year. I respect the fact that you laid out your assessment of the draft on a player by player basis. For the most part I either agree with your comments or at the very least don't feel compelled to dispute them.

Out of curiosity I went to the football reference page to look at the rushing leaders. I was trying to see where Jones is all time. Back in TC I remember thinking if he had a really really good year he might put himself into a position to move up the list. After missing so many games and then playing sparingly in his other games he won't achieve MY goal this year. He has 5480 rushing yards. Ahman Green and Jim Taylor are both over 8200. I don't see Jones being able to pass them without playing at least 3 more seasons. That doesn't seem likely.

My comment to you is- after looking at Jones' numbers I decided to look at Dillon. I was a little surprised to see he is #19 overall with 2121 yards. While it is true that he was a 2nd round selection, I don't see how he can be called a bust when he is in the top 20 for a franchise that has been around for more than 100 years. He has had around 800 yards the past two seasons. If he meets that this year he will slip between Eddie Lee Ivery and James Starks at #16. That's respectable. Not a world beater but it is respectable at least to me.

Dillon has had only 3 fumbles in his career. Only Clarke Hinkle had fewer. In 1171 attempts, he NEVER fumbled the ball. If I expand the pool out to look at the top 25 only Jamaal Williams can claim to have never fumbled. His 4.1 average is respectable when compared to the rest of the top 20. His TDs are lacking a little but I believe that is because he plays behind Jones. His 40 yards per game average is 10th among this group. That is somewhat skewed because QBs Rodgers and Tobin Rote are in this top 20 group. Then again so are Hall of Famer Tony Canadeo with 36.2, Dorsey Levens 38.6, Clarke Hinkle 34.2 and Gerry Ellis at 37.1 all are top 10 in total yards for the Packers.

In short- I would say that I hoped for more from Quadzilla when he was drafted but I would not put him into the bust camp. I would say he will be a "B" to "C" player for the Packers when he is done. Which would bring up an interesting discussion. Who are the overall "A" RB for GB? I would say it goes down as far as Paul Hornung at #10. He has 3711 yards. It's kind of difficult to say Ivery at 2933 would be too. But he is only #15. Surely the team has had 15 RB that merit being called "A" talent. Not Hall of Fame but, for the time they were in GB, they earned an "A" grade.

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