beast
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8 years ago

If the Packers finally move on from defensive coordinator for life Dom Capers after the season, let's hope they move on from the 3-4 scheme as well. It would only make sense considering general manager Ted Thompson has been drafting mostly 4-3 defensive linemen and outside linebackers for the past six years. Since 2010, Thompson has selected 11 defensive linemenContinue Reading›› 

Continue Reading @ Michael Rodney 

Michael Rodney wrote:



More talk about players not fitting the 3-4 scheme... but really are the Packers a 3-4 defense anymore?

I don't think any of the 3-4 defense are pure 3-4 defense anymore... since teams mostly play nickle defense (yes nickle defense is played more than base, despite the name base defense)... and really base defense seems to be playing less as well as teams play more dime defense... to stop all the pass happiness.

And in nickel and dime defense... the there is no 3-4... it's normally a 4 man front... so all 32 teams are really 4-2 defense teams. So teams want players that can play in the 4-2 defense most. And this article suggest the players might a good fit for the 4-3 (which is a lot like the 4-2).
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Dulak
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8 years ago
I think the last 4-3 we had we had some dude named sanders (actually my last name) as DC and he sucked; never blitzed etc and our d always sucked ... well least it wasnt fun to watch. Enjoy all the cool stuff capers does - its just some things I hate to see also ... rushing 6 and then seeing the qb connect with a 40 yard play etc 4-3 are quite predictable ... if we had a guy that would change things up thats another story. the titans dc Dick LeBeau he sure messed with our offense. Think the titans ran a 3-4
The_Green_Ninja
8 years ago
How quick we all forget how much we hated 4-3 defenses. A 3-4 defense won us a Super Bowl.
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beast
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8 years ago

How quick we all forget how much we hated 4-3 defenses. A 3-4 defense won us a Super Bowl.

Originally Posted by: The_Green_Ninja 



In today's NFL... ALL TEAMS are 4-2 teams first... and the rest are sub packages... as the nickel package has taken over today's NFL.

The defenses are slowly combining into hybrid systems. Certain defenses are dying or dead in the NFL... such as the traditional conservative 3-4 defense... and the 4-3 Tampa 2 ... and while every team probably runs cover 2... I don't think any team is exclusively running it like they used to.

So the argument IS NOT 4-3 or 3-4... as that's already been settle as the entire NFL has gone to the 4-2 defense... the 4-2 package is what teams need to focus for getting talent... as the rest are just subpackages.
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nerdmann
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8 years ago

I think the last 4-3 we had we had some dude named sanders (actually my last name) as DC and he sucked; never blitzed etc and our d always sucked ... well least it wasnt fun to watch. Enjoy all the cool stuff capers does - its just some things I hate to see also ... rushing 6 and then seeing the qb connect with a 40 yard play etc 4-3 are quite predictable ... if we had a guy that would change things up thats another story. the titans dc Dick LeBeau he sure messed with our offense. Think the titans ran a 3-4

Originally Posted by: Dulak 



Jim Bates was the DC under Sherman, he REALLY wanted a shot at HC. He was so disappointed that he wouldnt come back. Since the D had not had continuity for like 4 years in a row, Mike decided to keep the same defensive system. However, since Bates wouldn't coordinate, he had to go with Bob Sanders, Bates' right hand man. It easn't quite the same.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
hardrocker950
8 years ago

In today's NFL... ALL TEAMS are 4-2 teams first... and the rest are sub packages... as the nickel package has taken over today's NFL.

The defenses are slowly combining into hybrid systems. Certain defenses are dying or dead in the NFL... such as the traditional conservative 3-4 defense... and the 4-3 Tampa 2 ... and while every team probably runs cover 2... I don't think any team is exclusively running it like they used to.

So the argument IS NOT 4-3 or 3-4... as that's already been settle as the entire NFL has gone to the 4-2 defense... the 4-2 package is what teams need to focus for getting talent... as the rest are just subpackages.

Originally Posted by: beast 



A lot of truth in this. Rather than nickel being a 3rd and long solution, more teams are opting for the extra DB on the field quite often - which is not surprising with modern offensive philosophy.

I feel that the 4-3 has become outdated and doesn't stack up well against a modern offense. If we went to a 4-3 I would imagine our opponents would just use their TE more and destroy the middle of the field even more than they do now (if that is possible.)

The bottom line though - you have to find a way to put your best players on the field. With our current situation Dom needs to find ways to generate a pass rush to help the banged up secondary. I don't see us improving in that category with that change (but I have been wrong before.)
beast
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8 years ago

A lot of truth in this. Rather than nickel being a 3rd and long solution, more teams are opting for the extra DB on the field quite often - which is not surprising with modern offensive philosophy.

I feel that the 4-3 has become outdated and doesn't stack up well against a modern offense. If we went to a 4-3 I would imagine our opponents would just use their TE more and destroy the middle of the field even more than they do now (if that is possible.)

The bottom line though - you have to find a way to put your best players on the field. With our current situation Dom needs to find ways to generate a pass rush to help the banged up secondary. I don't see us improving in that category with that change (but I have been wrong before.)

Originally Posted by: hardrocker950 



I decided not to add my opinion in the last post, but I was thinking about talking about some of the hybrid systems.. specifically stating that I clearly prefer the 3-4 concepts. Even in a 4-3 design. The two teams I've noticed first do 3-4 concepts in the 4-3 design the were the Seahawks and Broncos.

The Seahawks with Pete Carroll's first year... ran a 4-3 system where they moved NT Red Bryant to 4-3 DE. Bryant was basically a five technique 3-4 using his run clogging skills like a NT would... and simply blitzed their OLB to that side a lot. So it was basically a 3-4 system, where the ROLB had his hand in the dirt every single play.... I couldn't help but think the Packers should of used Kampman like that (but on the left side). I'm not sure if the Seahawks still run this style defense or not... I think they might of moved away from it... but I'm not sure.

And the Broncos are now in a 3-4 defense... but note long ago, I swear their depth chart had a 4-3 design... with Von Miller as a 4-3 OLB and DeMarcus Ware as a 4-3 DE... but they still used a 3-4 concept with that, as Von Miller would surely be blitzing heavily.

I've wondered if the Packers could use a 4-3 system design with 3-4 concepts like the Broncos did...

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68md
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8 years ago
It really depends on personal rather then 'this is better then that" issue. Seattle.. Minnesota and Philly all have top 10 defenses running a 4-3 system that gives teams fits. The 3-4 defense was popular in the 70's and early 80's and then faded to the 4-3 scheme.... then it reverted back.

There are multiple ways of running a 34 or 43 scheme... if you have the right personal one is just as effective as the other.

In GB that won't matter much when your corners get beat like a drum and your front 7 only decides to play 1 out of 3 plays and getting gashed the other 2.

Hard cold reality..we just are not very good right now.[twocents]
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8 years ago
I don't care which one you run, until we get some speed and talent at ILB, this defense is going to suck. The good defenses around the league have studs at linebacker.

What's really disappointing is that Ted Thompson was a linebacker and still can't find players for the position. So the problem remains from the front office, through the coaching staff, to the players and the product all us momulucs watch on Sunday afternoons.

Also, why so many injuries every year? Do we need a new training staff?
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steveishere
8 years ago
Whatever scheme we need somebody better than Capers to call it. Other teams have injuries on defense and don't have consistently embarrassing performances like this team does. Dom does absolutely shit to cover for weaknesses. He just lets them get exposed over and over again while sticking to the plan regardless of how the game is working out.
beast
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8 years ago

Whatever scheme we need somebody better than Capers to call it. Other teams have injuries on defense and don't have consistently embarrassing performances like this team does. Dom does absolutely shit to cover for weaknesses. He just lets them get exposed over and over again while sticking to the plan regardless of how the game is working out.

Originally Posted by: steveishere 



I completely disagree. Other teams have their top 5 CBs injured? ... Rollins and Gunter are on the field but they're clearly limping early in games... they're not healthy.

Dom has made a lot of change attempts... but for every defense change, there is an offense change and depending on the other teams weapons... you need to adjust and Capers has.

The Packers normally play man to man with a single deep safety. When Shields got injured, he tried to continue that... but no one could step up to fill the #1 CB role... so Capers adjusted the Safeties to help... and the Packers found GREAT success with Gunter when they played cover 2 defense with two Safeties over the top.

The problem with cover 2 defenses, is that Safeties are much further back and can't help nearly as quickly against the run or with people in the short middle (especially if the team has a talented RB or TE)... and you notice... the Packers have struggled against teams with good RBs and TEs. And Capers has tried to be creative... against the Cowboys, he tried to get all the OLBers on the field at once with Matthews, Perry, Perry, etc.

Against the Redskins, the Packers were mostly playing a simple conservative scheme most of the game... and the CBs consistently failed to execute ... losing the WR or TE with juke moves at the line... consistently beating the CBs to the inside, over and over again. How hard it to realize, you need to stop letting you man take the inside? Al Harris made a career out of forcing guys to the outside. I don't know how any play caller, can fix that... other than tell the player to move to the inside and off of the man... but that then gives a clear shot to the outside and the CBs is playing catch up.

But anyways, Capers should of stuck with the conservative scheme... but he finally got tired of seeing the same plan fail... so he got more aggressive and what happen?... instead of simply getting burned to the inside... the CBs got completely burned deep... because the Safeties were no longer deep.


When the players can't execute, there is only so much a play caller can do.
I'm not saying Capers hasn't failed in other ways... like maybe coaching up his coaches or coaching up the players... but his play calling hasn't been bad... it's the lack of execution by the players on the field. If they're not executing, any play you call is going to look bad... and you're just picking the best of the bad... which is still ugly.
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steveishere
8 years ago
Make all the excuses you want. Every defense is going to have bad days but this defenses bad days are inexcusably bad. The fact that the bad days happen so often is also terrible. Look at Chicago, they don't have a very talented team to begin with and have a starter and FA aquisition at CB on IR, along with 3 other CB listed on the injury report this week (1 didn't play). A starting OLB on IR and their 1st round pick OLB out for this weeks game and a starting ILB suspended. Did they get obliterated like they were playing the 2011 packers against mediocre Tennessee today... no they did not. We haven't even gotten to how completely soft the defense is in any critical situation. It's week 12 and every game is littered with sloppy uninspired play on that side of the ball. Communication problems late in the year every single year. If we do make "adjustments" they don't work, if something we're doing is working opponents easily counter it.

I wouldn't mind seeing a struggling defense in light of the injury issues but the way other teams march up and down the field with no resistance while players are out there looking like walking dead going through the motions, the level of bad on our defense is TOO bad even accounting for the situation... Dom doesn't have some history here of terrific coaching so I'm not all about giving him more excuses.

Besides Matthews and Ryan for a couple games each our entire front 7 has been pretty healthy, both starting safeties healthy. It wasn't embarrassing but the D was not even impressive against Jacksonville with everyone healthy and even less so if you don't give them a pass for all the wide open receivers Bortles missed.
beast
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8 years ago

Make all the excuses you want.

Originally Posted by: steveishere 


You're just randomly calling anything that disagrees with your opinion an excuses...

You called out the play calling and non-adjustments. I simply pointed out that you are mistaken. That's not an excuse... it's what happening on the field. Adjustments were attempted, and no matter what they tried, the players couldn't execute it. The only thing I've thought of that wasn't tried (and maybe reasonable)... is maybe using Haha as a CB... like they did against Gronk. But then you'd lose him on the back end, and one of the CBs would be benched for an undrafted rookie Safety (and maybe Evans because Brice was already in the game).

I've also have wondered about Janis at deep FS... but that's probably not reasonable, and as some have pointed out, Janis has been more mistake prone this seasons (or it has seemed). Also I added other ways that Capers might of failed. It's not excuses... it's reality... Capers has many weakness, I just don't believe what you listed was correctly one of them.

I'm not saying Capers hasn't failed in other ways... like maybe coaching up his coaches or coaching up the players

Originally Posted by: beast 



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steveishere
8 years ago

You're just randomly calling anything that disagrees with your opinion an excuses...

You called out the play calling and non-adjustments. I simply pointed out that you are mistaken. That's not an excuse... it's what happening on the field. Adjustments were attempted, and no matter what they tried, the players couldn't execute it. The only thing I've thought of that wasn't tried (and maybe reasonable)... is maybe using Haha as a CB... like they did against Gronk. But then you'd lose him on the back end, and one of the CBs would be benched for an undrafted rookie Safety (and maybe Evans because Brice was already in the game).

I've also have wondered about Janis at deep FS... but that's probably not reasonable, and as some have pointed out, Janis has been more mistake prone this seasons (or it has seemed). Also I added other ways that Capers might of failed. It's not excuses... it's reality... Capers has many weakness, I just don't believe what you listed was correctly one of them.


Originally Posted by: beast 



"The players can't execute right" is an excuse for a coach maybe over a couple game sample or even a season. When players have communication and execution issues over several seasons it has to fall on the coach at some point. Dom's scheme is either too complicated for many players to consistently get right or he's not able to teach it well enough. Our defense only works well when it's stacked with talent at each level and I don't think that's a good thing in a league where injuries are so common. When we have a weakness it gets destroyed and Dom never has an answer to it. That's just the truth. Maybe he does try different things when somethings not working but rarely does whatever he tries work out. There are a lot of teams with bad CBs out there that don't manage to look as bad as our defense does even 1 game and we've been embarrassed several times this year.

My point is that I think it's past time for a coaching change on that side of the ball regardless of whatever reasons people can come up with for an excuse. I don't think Dom has earned the benefit of the doubt here. Every team is going to face talent related adversity that coaching is going to have to somewhat cover for. I think it would be hard to claim our defense could be much worse regardless of who is coaching so what we do know is Dom isn't good enough to coach the team out of it's issues. My worry is McCarthy is going to use the injuries as an excuse to not have to fire Capers.
nerdmann
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8 years ago

You're just randomly calling anything that disagrees with your opinion an excuses...

You called out the play calling and non-adjustments. I simply pointed out that you are mistaken. That's not an excuse... it's what happening on the field. Adjustments were attempted, and no matter what they tried, the players couldn't execute it. The only thing I've thought of that wasn't tried (and maybe reasonable)... is maybe using Haha as a CB... like they did against Gronk. But then you'd lose him on the back end, and one of the CBs would be benched for an undrafted rookie Safety (and maybe Evans because Brice was already in the game).

I've also have wondered about Janis at deep FS... but that's probably not reasonable, and as some have pointed out, Janis has been more mistake prone this seasons (or it has seemed). Also I added other ways that Capers might of failed. It's not excuses... it's reality... Capers has many weakness, I just don't believe what you listed was correctly one of them.


Originally Posted by: beast 



I'd sooner send Janis after the QB from the OLB spot than I would play him at S.

“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
Porforis
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8 years ago

"The players can't execute right" is an excuse for a coach maybe over a couple game sample or even a season. When players have communication and execution issues over several seasons it has to fall on the coach at some point. Dom's scheme is either too complicated for many players to consistently get right or he's not able to teach it well enough. Our defense only works well when it's stacked with talent at each level and I don't think that's a good thing in a league where injuries are so common. When we have a weakness it gets destroyed and Dom never has an answer to it. That's just the truth. Maybe he does try different things when somethings not working but rarely does whatever he tries work out. There are a lot of teams with bad CBs out there that don't manage to look as bad as our defense does even 1 game and we've been embarrassed several times this year.

My point is that I think it's past time for a coaching change on that side of the ball regardless of whatever reasons people can come up with for an excuse. I don't think Dom has earned the benefit of the doubt here. Every team is going to face talent related adversity that coaching is going to have to somewhat cover for. I think it would be hard to claim our defense could be much worse regardless of who is coaching so what we do know is Dom isn't good enough to coach the team out of it's issues. My worry is McCarthy is going to use the injuries as an excuse to not have to fire Capers.

Originally Posted by: steveishere 



I'm open to moving on from Capers after this season for sure, but I really need to question how many teams' defenses are functional with their top 3 CBs out and top 5 hurt. As a legitimate question - Is there any precedent for this? My point being, I'm not opposed to trying something new but I question how much of a difference any defensive coordinator could have made this season.

I also ask us all to consider that we're more likely to think the Packers' defense screws up more than other teams' defenses when we're not putting #5 guys against #2 guys, simply because we watch every single game the Packers play. If the Packers defense blows 1-2 big plays a game, that sticks out in our mind. When Washington left Cobb I believe completely and utterly wide open for the easiest touchdown I've seen in a while, we don't think "Wow, the Redskins have serious communication issues". Not to deny the Packers don't have a legitimate problem, just try to take everything in its proper context.
Pack93z
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8 years ago
With our linebacking corp decimated by injury... I would have thought Dom would have figured ways to get our depth at Dline in the rotation to help offset the thin LB spots.

If I am building a defense, I stay with a 3-4 base... just to much versitility with the set that a 4-3 does not give you. At times our alignment makes so little sense, 2 or single man fronts are rolled out there way to often. That and we don't use presnap movement very effectively to force protection shifts and cause confusion...
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
DarkaneRules
8 years ago
I freaking love the 3-4. It's just my kind of defense. That said, we've gotten out asses kicked by injuries and need more talent up-front. We can make this work though.
Circular Arguments: They are a heck of an annoyance
steveishere
8 years ago
I don't think we are even close to a 3-4 base though. We play Nickle when the other team has 2 in line TE and a FB. We play Nickle when the other team has 3 TE inside the red zone. We are a 2-4 base defense
buckeyepackfan
8 years ago
THE BEAT GOES ON.
😁 😁

There will not be any changes until after the season.

Watch other games, no team is consistently shutting down their opponents.

THE NFL WANTS SCORING!!!!!!

Tough to be a defensive player these days.

I'll say it every day, stop over analyzing and enjoy the game.
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