Porforis
13 years ago

not so much...Actually my conclusion is based on real facts

Barrett attacked 

Walker John Doe 

Originally Posted by: dhpackr 



Your original statement:

"It is a known fact what Walker's agenda is. Tom Barret will make a great governor. He actually sacrificed his own well-being to stop a violent crime."

What is this known fact about Walker's agenda, exactly? Where is your proof? If I'm basing my opinion off of facts mixed in with a crapton of personal opinion and an incomplete picture of the universe just like everyone else, where do you get off defining your opinion of what Walker's agenda truly is as a fact? We can all stand to be just a wee bit less absolute and recognize that just because you're mighty sure of yourself, that it doesn't mean that you are right and everyone else is wrong. That doesn't mean that the contrary is true either, but you come off as mighty sanctimonious when you come along declaring facts than you have determined based on an incomplete picture of... well, the facts.

Your included links seem to be fairly cherry picked. While they are certainly valid reasons to come to the conclusion you have, you seem to be leaving out important details about Barrett's own performance in Milwaukee and severe issues with the Milwaukee police department under his watch ranging from response times, proper staffing, and more recently "accidental" misclassification of thousands of violent crimes. The least you can do is recognise that all of these do not significantly factor into your opinion of Barrett as a person or a politician primarily BECAUSE of your opinion, not the other way around. It's human nature, and we can all stand to recognize it a bit more. I've found that it tends to promote a more balanced and less extreme worldview, rather than one where thousands to millions of people are pure evil rather than human beings like the rest of us, just as prone to evil under the right circumstances but not as devoid of good as we might like to think.

End rant before I piss people off too much more. 😉
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
13 years ago

I can only speak for myself and why I feel Walker should be recalled. He simply decided he wanted to save the state of Wisconsin money by ending collective bargaining for state employees who were in unions.

So, he ended collective bargaining. Took away a group of employees rights to bargain a fair contract without a vote. He violated the same Declaration of Independence you quoted. His quest to balance the states budget is going to make young students in urban areas life's much more difficult. Cuts to art, gym, special needs. Those who need education the most will suffer the most.

He is corrupt, and has big business at his best interest, not the citizens of Wisconsin.

Originally Posted by: dhpackr 



Again, you are risking confusing constitutional issues with political ones here.

By definition state politics involve great disagreements about the appropriate solutions. Especially so during economic times perceived as "tight." And because political decisions get made on majoritarian principles, this means that there are always significant minorities who are going to be pissed off, dissed, harmed more than others.

You feel the way you have just described. Other Wisconsin voters wanted him to end that same collective bargaining. Other Wisconsin voters are willing to absorb the very painful costs of a balanced budget. Those people elected him.

A recall is not just another election. A recall is an extraordinary remedy, one to be called on when the usual elections cannot be relied upon. A remedy used because the constitutional separation and balance of powers cannot be trusted.

There are times when extraordinary remedies are necessary. I presume that's why the provision is in the Wisconsin Constitution in the first place. Perhaps this is just such a time. I don't know. It's your state, not mine. The people of Wisconsin have to decide when to pursue an extraordinary remedy and when not to.

What I do know is that each time one resorts to an extraordinary remedy, it becomes easier to resort to it again. Until it becomes less an extraordinary choice, and more a part of the everyday toolbox of politics. And that is dangerous. Very dangerous.

Because that way ignores Jefferson's point that "altering or abolishing" demands systematic tyranny. Those who signed in 1776 didn't sign because George III and the British state crossed the line of fairness and justice once or twice, or because they gored this or that group interest during two years in office following a constitutional elecdtion. They signed because of a "long train of abuses and usurpations" occurring over decades. The enumeration of the types of offenses runs twenty-some paragraphs.

The Declaration was not just a response to the individual called George III, it was a response to a "Form of Government" (the British monarchy) that was destructive of the ends of life, liberty, etc. A recall election, even one provided in the constitution, is not merely an action taken because of an individual official; it is an action taken against the primary electoral institutions provided for in that same constitution.

A recall may be a political strategy. But it is a strategy with inevitably serious constitutional implications. And one allows the political strategy to govern over the constitutional constraints at one's peril.

A central part of what distinguishes the American approach to constitutional change c. 1776-1789 from, say, the French c. 1789-1848, is that the American founders recognized that revolution had to be accompanied by forbearance. Rights were fundamental and had to be protected, but they could not be protected to the last decimal point. The system only works if the members of society are willing to NOT press claims for perfect justice. Only if they are willing to accept the messiness of law and governance. Only if they are willing to suffer a significant amount of wrongs which they consider unfair.

Because majoritarianism is always going to yield minorities who are going to see themselves as unfairly treated.

Always.









And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
dhazer
13 years ago
I was reading an article this morning about how Walker won and it will impact the whole US, when I came across this quote from Barrett

"The final recall price tag is estimated to be $70 million to $80 million.

Barrett, the mayor of Milwaukee, said on Tuesday he was not disappointed that Obama did not campaign with him and said he kept his focus on the economic worries of Wisconsin residents."


Ok so between the 2 of them they spent $70 million dollars, what was the deficit for Wisconsin? I bet that $70 million would of went a good way to clearing that lol
Just Imagine this for the next 6-9 years. What a ride it will be 🙂 (PS, Zero should charge for this)
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dfosterf
13 years ago
Assuming he's not a corrupt fuck like some on here say, I say the man deserves a GD medal.

Over half of Wisconsin proved to me I was wrong. (as regards the voters in this nonsense) Only a tad over a million of you are completely fucked in the head, so I sincerely apologize for the over-broad characterization.

🤣

I heard 289k per job created by your president. I heard between 51% and 54% of Wisconsinites are going to vote for this man again.

Is the 289k figure pure hyperbole? I'd like an answer from one of those many thousands that voted to retain this Gov, but plan to vote for Obama-- I'm curious as hell.

I got Romney as the perfect game-show-host, so maybe that's a factor.

You do habla "pandering"? Some pander to the interests in their party, some pander to the general electorate.

A small example:

Let's review. Remember Toyota products as death traps due to gas pedals that stick? This was last election cycle. How's that doin'?

The pavlovian dogs all bought that nonsense.

(Where was pinko Nick, our token engineer, explaining that EVEN IF those cars were fucking FLOORED, the braking systems would FAR OVERCOME the engines and trannys- I'm cuttin' his pay to 5 an hr. - upon reflection, lol)



The American people now own GM to a large degree. I'm no expert on these matters, but as an almost law-school graduate that didn't finish due to yet another fucking blow-up on earth that the Corps said I had to go help fix- I say that our purchase and retention of GM stock has to be completely unconstitutional, always was, and this admin knew it when they did it. Prove me wrong on that also, while you are up.
vegOmatic
13 years ago
No where in this thread has people figured out the teacher's union was corrupt and ripping off the taxpayers in Wisconsin. It wasn't about worker rights, it was about buying the government and using it to live off the taxpayers. Wah boo hoo if you now have to live like the rest of us.
blank
dfosterf
13 years ago

No where in this thread has people figured out the teacher's union was corrupt and ripping off the taxpayers in Wisconsin. It wasn't about worker rights, it was about buying the government and using it to live off the taxpayers. Wah boo hoo if you now have to live like the rest of us.

Originally Posted by: vegOmatic 



That is partially my fault, as in my ignorance, I thought that was assumed, lol



wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
13 years ago
I have been wondering if Walker's win has given him enough clout to be considered for VP this Fall. I suspect they will look to one of the bigger swing States like Ohio, Pennsylvania or Virgina for the Veep but Scott has to be on the list somewhere.
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vikesrule
13 years ago

..so I sincerely apologize... I'm no expert on these matters...as in my ignorance..

Originally Posted by: dfosterf 



foster-son, you should have just left it at that.:-"

Zero2Cool
13 years ago

Ah Cheesey my friend, what Scott Walker is doing is giving you Wisconsin folk some great sex, because he is screwing you at every turn.
Hell, Walker even gives Snake Oil salesmen a bad name.

"Out of Debt" you think?.......guess again.

Walker has pulled the wool over your eyes by one the sleaziest tricks in the book.
Or I should say that he has done so at the behest of his controllers, the Koch brothers and Diane Hendricks.

It is called "Debt Restructuring"

The Wisconsin Legislative Fiscal Bureau reported that Walker borrowed more than $558 million over the last 16 months to "balance the budget",
and that Wisconsin taxpayers will have to pay back that $558 million, and add on an EXTRA $158 million to pay off those bills overt the next 20 years.

Instead of paying off these $558 million in bills during the 2011 and 2012 fiscal year, these bills will now be paid in future years,
and the Legislative Fiscal Bureau runs down the costs that taxpayers will now bear in future years as a result of Walker's credit card spree.

TOTAL 2011-2017 PAYMENTS- $418.843 million

2011-12- $9.824 million
2012-13- $44.913 million
2013-14- $98.431 million
2014-15- $98.426 million
2015-16- $83.630 million
2016-17- $83.619 million

You read that right, Walker's short-term cosmetic moves to make his budget seem solvent will cost taxpayers nearly $419 million over the next few budgets,
which will be money that can't go to schools, universities, social services, and numerous other General Fund programs......
.....or will result in a major tax increase to maintain these services.

It's a lot like taking on a huge credit card loan to pay off your bills right now. In the short-term it looks good, but it'll hurt you a lot more later.

Walker's moves have sent Wisconsin further into debt and with higher deficits than you ever faced under Jim Doyle.
And unlike 2008-9, it isn't happening in the middle of the biggest economic meltdown in 75 years,
but in a time when quite a few other states (but not Wisconsin) are recovering and growing jobs.

That is just one of the multitude of things that Walker has done wrong and then lied about.

He and his political fluff Lt. Governor....one Rebecca Kleefisch.
Now there is a piece of work, Rebecca Kleefisch makes Sarah Palin look semi-intelligent and Michele Bachmann almost seem sane.

Originally Posted by: vikesrule 



This was obviously a cut/paste post, but you don't provide the link? Why should this be trusted as anything more than one of the Pro Walker or Pro Barrett comments?
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