DakotaT
13 years ago

Isn't this part of Kevin's point? We can't make it right. No matter what we do, we can't change the past. No matter who is to blame or who isn't to blame (to my mind, the wrong argument entirely), we can't change what has already happened.

All we can do is change what we do in the future. We can use to past to look back and resolve "Never again. Not on my watch." But we can't go back and change what has happened, no matter how sincere our feelings and our anger and our despair over what has happened.

If people want me to apologize for slavery and the Holocaust (I'm sure I have German somewhere among my ancestors) and the Crusades and every other evil my ancestors have done, fine. I apologize. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

And where, exactly, has that apology gotten anyone? Indeed, to the extent that it is sincere, to the extent that I am serious in making it, it may make things worse. Because it convinces me, or someone else, that I've actually demonstrated that I give a shit about my fellow man when I have done nothing of the sort. Because all I've done is do what the Sunday Christian does. I've covered up my scumbag, unbathed self with fancy clothes and lilac cologne.

Originally Posted by: Wade 



Have you checked out the politics of the right wing lately: the party of Greed and Control. Yeah I'd say we're heading in the exact opposite of what we should be doing if we truly were a nation of Christians under God, indivisible and all that crap. We're a nation of hypocrites - deal with it.
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Zero2Cool
13 years ago

Until one of you explains to me how we can possible be forgiven for slavery, the unjust conquest of American Southwest, and the treatment of the Asians and American Indians this conversation goes nowhere. Those wounds have not been cleansed, or the attempt even made. They are still wide open. We whip out our flags and proclaim our freedom a couple times a year and Lee Greenwood gets a few gigs and sings "Proud to be and American" and we feel all giddy. It's all bullshit because American was built on the backs of those aforementioned oppressed peoples. And the biggest beneficiaries of the bull shit are the top 5 percenters and it is why I have a strong disdain for them. Even if they were stripped of all their wealth - it wouldn't be enough to make it all right.

Originally Posted by: DakotaT 





We don't need to be forgiven for slavery. I ask this seriously, have you spoken to any black folks? They don't want forgiveness, they want freedom and they want to be viewed as you, me, the guy next door, etc. When I was young and in school, we were educated on slavery. One of my best friends was black, I told him I was sorry for what his ancestors went through. You know what he said? "Doogie, you got nothing to be sorry for man, it wasn't you, it's the past."

This worrying about being forgiven about Slavery, what about what the Jewish went through? I'm German, do I need to give up being a father, quit my job and devote my life to making the first Jewish person I see ... make their life better because of what my ancestors MAY have done to their ancestors?


The point I'm making is, blacks are not the only ones who were scrutinized against, women were, Jewish were, Asians, Indians, etc ... and if we hold the perception that we must atone for others mistakes, it sets an awful precedent on several fronts. 1, it says "hey I'm above you, I need your forgiveness for something I did not do, to someone you don't know" and 2, it says "bah, I can treat this person like garbage, I'll let those who are born 50 - 100 years from atone for my inconsiderate biggot behavior".





NOTHING can be done, NOTHING! Slavery happened. Women were discriminated against. Holocaust happened. Neither YOU nor I can change that. Neither YOU nor I should have the audacity to even ASK for forgiveness.



You want someone to explain how we can be forgiven for those atrocities of our ancestors? It's quite simple Troy, you be the best damn husband you can be. You be the best damn father you can be, better than you even knew you could be. You raise your children to never be apart of such atrocious behavior of human beings. You raise your children to be open minded, understanding, respectful, proud and most importantly (related to the subject that is) you raise them to understand everyone is EQUAL regardless of sex, race, appearance or sexual orientation. That Troy, that is the best thing that any of us can do to atone for the past.
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DakotaT
13 years ago



You want someone to explain how we can be forgiven for those atrocities of our ancestors? It's quite simple Troy, you be the best damn husband you can be. You be the best damn father you can be, better than you even knew you could be. You raise your children to never be apart of such atrocious behavior of human beings. You raise your children to be open minded, understanding, respectful, proud and most importantly (related to the subject that is) you raise them to understand everyone is EQUAL regardless of sex, race, appearance or sexual orientation. That Troy, that is the best thing that any of us can do to atone for the past.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



I think I do that everyday thank you very much.

I think people go through life thinking that judgment day is just a myth or idea, that if you go to church and take communion that everything you do is wiped clean. It doesn't matter what you do the rest of the week cause that little wafer is magic. I don't buy it and I love conversations like because most people run for the hills when deep ideas are brought up. I've been trained pretty well in life to sniff out the bullshit. And Kevin - the past will be atoned for by God, maybe it is too much for us mere mortals to do for ourselves - but can't we try?
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Zero2Cool
13 years ago

I think I do that everyday thank you very much.

Originally Posted by: DakotaT 


By no means at all was I suggesting you were not. I'm saying you're doing what's best already, there is nothing more than we can do.


I think people go through life thinking that judgment day is just a myth or idea, that if you go to church and take communion that everything you do is wiped clean. It doesn't matter what you do the rest of the week cause that little wafer is magic. I don't buy it and I love conversations like because most people run for the hills when deep ideas are brought up. I've been trained pretty well in life to sniff out the bullshit. And Kevin - the past will be atoned for by God, maybe it is too much for us mere mortals to do for ourselves - but can't we try?

Originally Posted by: DakotaT 



Unfortunately, I'm not well versed in the oddities of judgment day, communion, etc ... and I never said we couldn't try, I even explained the best way to try. To of which you said are already guilty of. Refer to my first comment in this post.





Kind of side tracking here, but since you've mentioned God. I have a strong perception of God that most don't understand, nor appreciate. I tend to keep it to myself for just that reason. I do believe there is a higher power, I just don't believe God is waiting one by one for each us to walk through the pearly gates with a big as notebook saying "Kevin, remember that DakotaT fella on your website when you were a youngster, ... well I do and you were a jerk to him, to PURGATORY HELL WITH YOU!".

I want to believe in religion, but when there are so many religions out there saying their God is the one an only, it makes it near impossible for me. I mean, which one am I to choose to follow? Door 1, 2, 3, etc ... instead I put my faith elsewhere, in being the best person I can be and letting the cards fall where they may.
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wpr
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13 years ago



2. Without first stealing all the lands in America, there would be no wealth in which to speak of. How can you make something righteous from something wrong? Hell even the Louisiana Purchase was thievery, but we like to think of it as a real good deal.

Originally Posted by: DakotaT 




There is no doubt people were living on the land before the Whites came and moved them off. There is no doubt that people were made subservient workers to others (Black, Brown, Red, Yellow and White).

That said it has happened in nearly every nation in every part of the world at some point in time. The Germanic people were not the first into northern Europe. The Saxons not first into England. Nor the present day Chinese in China or the currently indigenous people of Africa. As a matter of fact one African tribe would help to capture their rival tribe knowing they would be used as slaves. Where do I see you calling for them to apologize and make restitution?

Through out history people wondered and moved and relocated themselves. The killed or made slaves of those who were there before them. Just because it happened 2-3000 years ago doesn't make it any less of a crime. Why do we have to be the ones to make amends simply because it happened 150 years ago instead of 5000 years ago?
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Zero2Cool
13 years ago

Through out history people wondered and moved and relocated themselves. The killed or made slaves of those who were there before them. Just because it happened 2-3000 years ago doesn't make it any less of a crime. Why do we have to be the ones to make amends simply because it happened 150 years ago instead of 5000 years ago?

Originally Posted by: wpr 



Crime like treason, is a matter of dates. That's a HUGE problem with this thinking of needing to forgive for past mistakes. Should we punish Edgar Allen Poe for marrying what we now call a minor?

What we feel is wrong now, was not felt similar during that time. That alone is reason enough to move forward and simply ensure we raise our young to not make the same mistakes that we now feel were mistakes.
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DakotaT
13 years ago



Through out history people wondered and moved and relocated themselves. The killed or made slaves of those who were there before them. Just because it happened 2-3000 years ago doesn't make it any less of a crime. Why do we have to be the ones to make amends simply because it happened 150 years ago instead of 5000 years ago?

Originally Posted by: wpr 




Because if we don't at least try - are we any better than the original offenders? A coward sweeps a problem under the carpet, a man embraces it.
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wpr
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13 years ago

Because if we don't at least try - are we any better than the original offenders? A coward sweeps a problem under the carpet, a man embraces it.

Originally Posted by: DakotaT 



What do we have we done that makes us a coward? I guess my point (and everyone else) is how far back in my national/ethnic heritage do I have to go? 100, 1000 or 5000 years? How much am I personally responsible for?

Ezekiel 18:20 King James Version (KJV)

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.



I am not responsible for the actions of those that went before me. That is there responsibility. I am only responsible for being the best person I can be right now. I agree if, metaphorically speaking, I see a house was torn down, I can help to rebuild it. To help make that person whole. But I don't have to help every single person rebuild their house and I don't have to compensate them for the house that someone else tore down. And I certainly object to someone pointing at a house their great great great great grandpa lived in and have them tell me it is my fault and give them money. I also find it annoying when they don't go get/built their own house like I and others had to do.
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DakotaT
13 years ago
Your responsible for whatever you think you are. If you think doing nothing is adequate than do nothing. We all stand alone on this.

Your Ezekiel verse leaves out one little thing though that we need to apply to this discussion. As white folk we have inherited a world that is totally tilted in our favor, just like the comedy act Evad gave us. And I think we've come to the conclusion that there was a lot of wrong doing that put us in that position. So if we enjoy that postion and ignore the wrong - are you truly absolved from for your father's sins? Do you really believe that?
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wpr
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13 years ago

Your responsible for whatever you think you are. If you think doing nothing is adequate than do nothing. We all stand alone on this.

Your Ezekiel verse leaves out one little thing though that we need to apply to this discussion. As white folk we have inherited a world that is totally tilted in our favor, just like the comedy act Evad gave us. And I think we've come to the conclusion that there was a lot of wrong doing that put us in that position. So if we enjoy that postion and ignore the wrong - are you truly absolved from for your father's sins? Do you really believe that?

Originally Posted by: DakotaT 



yep. My dad was a great guy but he made his share of mistakes in his lifetime and then some. I can not go back and correct them. There were his not mine.

Dakota, there are a lot of wrongs int he world. I do my best to lend a hand where I can. But don't obligate me to end all the wrongs in the whole world. Don't tell me because someone mistreated another person 200 years ago that it is my fault too and I am obligated to fix it. It is not. And I don't want the off spring for that person telling me so either.

I do a lot for those around me. All the time. Sometimes it something small some times like taking the news paper from the box to the front door for a widow woman. Sometimes it is bigger like giving a considerable amount of money to another so he can run his business. I don't ask what color their skin is before I lend them a helping hand. THAT would be racist. I have worked on building projects. I have done fund raisers for the sick. It happens all the time. If I get a call and someone asks me to help them move, I will do so. (If I am able.) If I show up and they are sitting there drinking a beer and nothing is packed and they tell me to do it for them, I am out the door. I don't ask them if my grandpappy was mean to their great grandpappy. Who cares?
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