The_Claymaker
14 years ago





Disagree.. Suh last year was about as good as it gets on the interior line play.. true impact player. I may have had him higher actually.. hard pressed to tell me that there are many players better than him right now..

Originally Posted by: Pack93z 



I don't think he was necesarily a better player than BJ Raji last year, Suh just plays in a scheme where that is geared more toward him making plays. I'm mean I understand his tackle and sack totals were very high for any defensive tackle, but Raji's were just as high in comparison to other 34 nose tackles. If your saying he was the best interior lineman I hope you calling Ngata a 5 technique, because I think that is a joke saying Suh is better than Ngata. Frankly I don't necesarilly se him as a better defensive player than Nnamdi, C-Wood, Polamalu, James Harrison, Clay, maybe even a pair of defensive ends I hate in Pepper and Jare Allen.


That said.. Porky reasoned that Ryan didn't belong because he needs more time to prove himself (my interpretation that needs a bigger body of work) then it seems ironic that Suh gets that nod upon one year. Have to believe that Porky believes Ryan needs to develop more, in which I may challenge a some.. but Ryan is close to that top 10. Personally.. I think Ryan was better over the course of the year than Brees.. heck I think Rivers was maybe better than either of them.

Originally Posted by: Pack93z 



My opinion on Ryan differs greatly from yours and apparently a few people on here who think he's a fringe top 10. I wouldn't have in my top 5 QB's, maybe not in my top 50 players in the NFL. I think he's massively overrated. I put Brady, Peyton, Aaron, Brees, Rivers and Big Ben above him easily. Romo and Vick would probably beat him out to.



Now Joe Thomas..with the level in which he plays the left tackle spot.. there is little doubt that he belongs on a top 10 list.

Originally Posted by: Pack93z 



Yeah that might have been my biggest overreaction. I don't necessarily have him in my top 10 but he's definitely in the argument.


Personally.. having 4 QB's ranked in the top 10 is the outrageous part.. IMO.

Originally Posted by: Pack93z 


I would probably have the same 4 maybe not Brees.
Pack93z
14 years ago

I don't think he was necesarily a better player than BJ Raji last year, Suh just plays in a scheme where that is geared more toward him making plays. I'm mean I understand his tackle and sack totals were very high for any defensive tackle, but Raji's were just as high in comparison to other 34 nose tackles. If your saying he was the best interior lineman I hope you calling Ngata a 5 technique, because I think that is a joke saying Suh is better than Ngata. Frankly I don't necesarilly se him as a better defensive player than Nnamdi, C-Wood, Polamalu, James Harrison, Clay, maybe even a pair of defensive ends I hate in Pepper and Jare Allen.

Originally Posted by: The_Claymaker 





Well then.. if you want to disregard their impacts within their given schemes.. then throw out the whole concept of a "master" list of the top 100 players (which actually I would highly advocate because this type of activity is so subjective overall anyway) because there is no possible way to accurately judge players from varying schemes and level a gauge of worth.



I love the debate of techniques, schemes and defensive principles.. but I think it clouds this type of compilation too greatly.



What I see in Suh last year was a guy that came in and changed the way a defense played almost single-handed.. Raji is a great ball player, but I don't think he had the same overall impact as Suh.



Of course that is my view upon it.. and very possibly not correct.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Rockmolder
14 years ago

My opinion on Ryan differs greatly from yours and apparently a few people on here who think he's a fringe top 10. I wouldn't have in my top 5 QB's, maybe not in my top 50 players in the NFL. I think he's massively overrated. I put Brady, Peyton, Aaron, Brees, Rivers and Big Ben above him easily. Romo and Vick would probably beat him out to.

Originally Posted by: The_Claymaker 



=d>
The_Claymaker
14 years ago





Well then.. if you want to disregard their impacts within their given schemes.. then throw out the whole concept of a "master" list of the top 100 players (which actually I would highly advocate because this type of activity is so subjective overall anyway) because there is no possible way to accurately judge players from varying schemes and level a gauge of worth.



I love the debate of techniques, schemes and defensive principles.. but I think it clouds this type of compilation too greatly.



What I see in Suh last year was a guy that came in and changed the way a defense played almost single-handed.. Raji is a great ball player, but I don't think he had the same overall impact as Suh.



Of course that is my view upon it.. and very possibly not correct.

Originally Posted by: Pack93z 



You have it completely wrong, I'm not disregarding their impacts within their given scheme I'm accounting for their impact within their given scheme. I'm accounting for the fact that as a nose in the 3-4 your job is more to hold the point of attack, and draw a double team, than penetrate like Suh does in his scheme. Unfortunately it is more difficult to tell how well a nose is doing because there are not glamourous stats for drawing double teams and allowing other players on your team to make plays. Despite playing in a scheme that is not beneficial to him him putting up a lot of sacks he still got 6.5. My point was 10 sacks like Suh is impressive for a DT, but 6.5 is arguably just as impressive for a zero technique in a 34. Sure Suh came in and helped in the transformation of a terrible defense to around an average defense, but it's not like the Lions defense was off the charts last year. Additionally you could say with the two years that BJ and Clay have had they turned an average defense into an elite defense, a much more difficult shift (though of course there was the addition of two of them, then again you can't entirely credit the Lions improvement to Suh).
Stevetarded
14 years ago
6.5 sacks for a NT who plays over 70% of his plays with only 1 other lineman is way more impressive than 10 sacks from a DT who gets to rush the passer on almost every play.
blank
porky88
14 years ago
When was the last time a DT recorded 10 sacks in a season, let alone his rookie year?

The answer is Warren Sapp in 06 with the Raiders and I cannot recall if a rookie ever did so recently.

Suh can single handily disrupt a game on his own. Without Suh, I'm not sure the Lions go on their four-game winning streak last season and I know they aren't anywhere near a potential wildcard team they could be.

Raji is a very solid NT. In fact, he is the best NT in the NFC right now, but he is a vastly different player than Suh. Suh plays the three technique in a 4-3 defense, which yes, does allow him to create havoc. However, 10 sacks from that position is amazing. I cannot stress that enough. The rush he provides inside is comparable to players in the Hall of Fame. Right now, he pushes the pocket and creates more havoc in the backfield than any defensive lineman in football creates.

I also would note majority of Raji’s snaps came from a 2-4-5 alignment anyways. He moved out of the nose spot, which is demonized to some extent and into a a more favorable role.

A better comparison for Raji would Ngata, who moves around in similar ways. With that said, Ngata is probably the most game planned for defensive lineman in the NFL. He actually might be the most game planned for defensive player right now, which is why he is No. 3 on my list. Teams will block him with up to as many as three guys to stop him from penetrating the backfield. That frees up those Raven LBs to make the plays they do. Ngata makes guys around him better, as does Suh, which makes them special players. Raji has the ability to make a similar impact someday, but for all his success last season, he has not achieved that quite yet.
Zero2Cool
14 years ago
Suh Suhks. 🙂
UserPostedImage
Formo
14 years ago

=d>

Originally Posted by: Rockmolder 



Not sure is your emoticon is for sarcasm or serious..

But to put Big Ben higher than Ryan is laughable.

The way I see the list as.. If I had my choice picks to fill my favorite team's roster.. Who would I pick? And in no circumstance whatsoever would I EVER pick Big Ben before Matt Ryan.
UserPostedImage
Thanks to TheViking88 for the sig!!
The_Claymaker
14 years ago

Not sure is your emoticon is for sarcasm or serious..

But to put Big Ben higher than Ryan is laughable.

The way I see the list as.. If I had my choice picks to fill my favorite team's roster.. Who would I pick? And in no circumstance whatsoever would I EVER pick Big Ben before Matt Ryan.

Originally Posted by: Formo 



What's so laughable about 3 Super Bowl appearances and 2 rings in seven seasons? Your response will be he has had a great defense and run game. Guess what? Matt Ryan is built on the same principle, he's not a gunslinger who has thrown his team to victories. Neither of them have put up as big passing numbers as Peyton, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, or Rivers. There are some people who when evaluating QB's overemphasize winning and others who overemphasize passing stats. However Big Ben blows Matt Ryan out of the water in terms of winning, and is on par or above Ryan from a pure passing stats standpoint.
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
If you are forced to choose one of those two as your quarterback, you are going to have to assemble a dynamite defense.
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