Cheesey
14 years ago

I can't believe the dual poon-tang dead-lady

"dfosterf" wrote:


"Poon Tang??"
Never heard of that flavor.......i only drank Orange "Tang".
UserPostedImage
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago

first hand observation of a medical student. ;)

"pack93z" wrote:



Ah, but I didn't observe these women in a medical context. They're just people I know. 😛
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Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago
I still think you guys are wrong on suicide-as-cowardly.

Now, if you want to say "letting yourself decline mentally that far without getting help first is cowardly," that *might* be a different thing.

But the reality is that when someone gets mentally to a point where they are seriously contemplating suicide, they are already seriously fucked up judgment-wise. And expecting them to turn back out of "courage" is just unreasonable.

Lucky, yes. But at that point in the process, being courageous/cowardly simply is not the choice offered anymore.

Sure, they aren't paying attention to anyone else. I'll agree with that. But they aren't paying quality attention to anything

I have stepped back from that brink more than once. And the most recent times I did it because, in the end, I could put "faith" (not reason, faith) in my God. But before I had that faith as deep as I have it now, I have no idea what pulled me back.

It sure as heck wasn't worrying about what other people might have to go through, though. I can't say what people are thinking/not thinking about when they decide to step off, since I've always stepped back. But I will say that at those horribly bad times other people weren't even in my universe when I did.

I wasn't sane enough to reason.

All I was is lucky.

I remember the story of H. Beam Piper. For science fiction fans, Piper was one of the great science fiction writers of the "late golden age" (50s/early sixties). He was a lot like Heinlein, but not as prolific and not as long lived. He wasn't long lived because, at the age of 60 he killed himself. He was far from a coward, but he was deep in the demons of despair.

Here's the way Jerry Pournelle told it in the introduction of Little Fuzzy,
Piper shut off all the utilities to his apartment, put painter's drop-cloths over the walls and floor, and took his own life with a handgun from his collection. In his suicide note, he gave an explanation that "I don't like to leave messes when I go away, but if I could have cleaned up any of this mess, I wouldn't be going away."

On the one hand, the drop cloths suggest a rational decision. But the inherent contradiction in the whole thing suggests nothing to me that this brilliant, brilliant man had simply gone to a place where his mind wasn't working anymore.

I just can't see it as cowardly.

If suicide is cowardly, how is it that demonstrable war heroes often commit suicide?

If suicide is cowardly, how is it that so often the people around afterward say "he/she was a dedicated family man/woman and a person dedicated to making people's lives better"? If suicide is cowardly, how is it that those eulogists and survivors, in remembering the suicide, had him or her exactly accurate right up until the moment before he/she stepped off?

I just can't buy it.

And yes, I do feel sorry for all suicides. Even Judas. Because to me, the suicide has made the ultimate choice against self-interest. He or she has damned his or her soul to eternity. I can think of no bigger loss.

I believe that God was sad when Judas gave into despair, because he knew that by giving in, Judas had damned himself. And if God can be sad for Judas, I should be able to be sad for H. Beam Piper or anyone else who steps off instead of stepping back.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
Agreed, Wade. I think that in some situations suicide is the most unselfish thing one can do for those one loves.
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Cheesey
14 years ago
Wade......i'm glad i'm not the only one.
I have felt like that too many times. Things can get over powering to the point where it just seems like the ONLY way out is the BIG out.
It just piles up more and more, where you don't feel you can carry it anymore.
UserPostedImage
4PackGirl
14 years ago
i feel the same way you do wade. i think it's incredibly unfair & unempathetic to call someone who commits suicide selfish or cowardly. these people are in an incredible amount of pain - some of it possibly physical & certainly some mental. if you knew the only way to get out of that pain was to end your life, how could you not do it? i'm very happy none of you did but i would certainly try to understand why if you made that choice.
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago

i don't have to do research, formo - i lived it. along with the other women i met along the way. and don't ever tell me what to do again. i will seriously pull out the whip. :D

"4PackGirl" wrote:




ooo.

seriously, no whip is necessary. but black, er, forest green, leather would never be frowned upon. 🙂
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
longtimefan
14 years ago

i feel the same way you do wade. i think it's incredibly unfair & unempathetic to call someone who commits suicide selfish or cowardly. these people are in an incredible amount of pain - some of it possibly physical & certainly some mental. if you knew the only way to get out of that pain was to end your life, how could you not do it? i'm very happy none of you did but i would certainly try to understand why if you made that choice.

"4PackGirl" wrote:



Well said!

My theory is the people that say it is cowardly and selfish, quite possibly never have had the thoughts of suicide or the extreme depression/sadness/pain..But I could be wrong..
longtimefan
14 years ago

he framed it as an absolute.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



No, I framed it as a doctor's joke that I've heard on the lips of multiple physicians.

I also said I personally haven't seen it fail -- that all the women I've known who adopted later conceived.

.

"pack93z" wrote:



How many women? I only know of 3 women that adopted, and never conceived afterwards
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