macbob
14 years ago


2010 #s are a little low, but a very little low. If GB had run 10 more times in the 1st 5 games (only 2 attempts per game), our Rush % would have been right up there with the preceding years. That's 1 attempt each half. Our overall numbers (22.7 rushes per game is down 4-5 attempts over most years, but our pass attempts are down, too, a sign our offense isn't doing as well overall).

With Favre running less, the QB runs for 03-07 are a lot lower than 08-10 (in fact, Rodgers has run more in 2+ years than Favre in 5 years). But even factoring that in, here's Rodgers vs Favres #s:

QB PA Rush PA/G R/G %PA %Rush QB RB % RB Rush
R 1262 988 34.1 26.7 0.560 0.439 133 855 0.403
F 2905 2165 36.3 27.0 0.572 0.427 104 2061 0.415

Now, these #s only reflect 3 years of Mike Sherman vs 4+ years of McCarthy, but the % rush vs pass are virtually identical. So, as much as I hate to admit it, I was wrong.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



Virtually identical? Look at the RB rush %. That's what matters. It's significantly higher under Sherman.

The thing is though, we ran under Sherman because that's what we were designed to do. Sherman had a superior OL to what we have today. Green and Grant are about equal in efficiency. Had Grant run behind that line, he would probably have the same stats Green had. Not taking anything away from Green. I just think Grant is that good.

You play to your strengths. Our current strengths are our QB and WRs. What I don't understand is why we got away from the short passing game. Let's throw some short passes and let Driver, Jennings, and Jones get us some YAC, like we did in 2007. Drove D's nuts and kept us on the field all day long. That's one reason why 2007 was so successful.

"macbob" wrote:



Under Rodgers we've had a 60/40%, under Favre we had a 59/41% split. Thats not significantly higher.

Taking all of the Sherman years (6 years, 2000-2005) compared to McCarthy's 4+, and subtracting out the QB runs (which should make McCarthy's #s worse compared to Sherman's):

Sherman #s are 3387 passes to 2469 rushes, or 57.8/42.2%.
McCarthy's #s are 2470/1662, or 60.4/39.6%.

Over the course of a season, theres close to 1000 plays run. The difference in % above would have Sherman running 26 more times than McCarthy over the course of a season, or less than 2 runs per gameless than 1 run a half. Again, in my opinion, thats NOT significantly higher.
zombieslayer
14 years ago

Under Rodgers we've had a 60/40%, under Favre we had a 59/41% split. Thats not significantly higher.

Taking all of the Sherman years (6 years, 2000-2005) compared to McCarthy's 4+, and subtracting out the QB runs (which should make McCarthy's #s worse compared to Sherman's):

Sherman #s are 3387 passes to 2469 rushes, or 57.8/42.2%.
McCarthy's #s are 2470/1662, or 60.4/39.6%.

Over the course of a season, theres close to 1000 plays run. The difference in % above would have Sherman running 26 more times than McCarthy over the course of a season, or less than 2 runs per gameless than 1 run a half. Again, in my opinion, thats NOT significantly higher.

"macbob" wrote:



That's surprising.

The year that stood out for me with Sherman was my favorite year with Sherman and actually, the ONLY year I enjoyed watching the Packers under Sherman - 2003.

It seemed like this teams would squeak into the Playoffs only to be immediately blown out. That's where we lost that Lambeau Playoff magic. I don't know how old you are, but Lambeau used to be a place where if you're an opponent, you will lose in the Playoffs. We were undefeated in Lambeau until the Sherman years.

Anyways, I digress. 2003 we ran a lot and no one could stop us. We were a run first team with an elite OL. For the record, the Sherman years were the only time Favre had an elite OL. Our SB team's OL was average at best.

But yes, you're right. The 2003 team would have skewed the Sherman years in favor of the run and other than that, Sherman and Mike McCarthy are pretty much equal.

I'm just as surprised as you are. It's probably because my brain tried to block out those other Sherman years. Love the guy as a person. Neutral to negative as a Coach and hated him as a GM.

By the way, +1 for all that research you did. Good stuff.
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macbob
14 years ago

Under Rodgers we've had a 60/40%, under Favre we had a 59/41% split. Thats not significantly higher.

Taking all of the Sherman years (6 years, 2000-2005) compared to McCarthy's 4+, and subtracting out the QB runs (which should make McCarthy's #s worse compared to Sherman's):

Sherman #s are 3387 passes to 2469 rushes, or 57.8/42.2%.
McCarthy's #s are 2470/1662, or 60.4/39.6%.

Over the course of a season, theres close to 1000 plays run. The difference in % above would have Sherman running 26 more times than McCarthy over the course of a season, or less than 2 runs per gameless than 1 run a half. Again, in my opinion, thats NOT significantly higher.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



That's surprising.

The year that stood out for me with Sherman was my favorite year with Sherman and actually, the ONLY year I enjoyed watching the Packers under Sherman - 2003.

It seemed like this teams would squeak into the Playoffs only to be immediately blown out. That's where we lost that Lambeau Playoff magic. I don't know how old you are, but Lambeau used to be a place where if you're an opponent, you will lose in the Playoffs. We were undefeated in Lambeau until the Sherman years.

Anyways, I digress. 2003 we ran a lot and no one could stop us. We were a run first team with an elite OL. For the record, the Sherman years were the only time Favre had an elite OL. Our SB team's OL was average at best.

But yes, you're right. The 2003 team would have skewed the Sherman years in favor of the run and other than that, Sherman and Mike McCarthy are pretty much equal.

I'm just as surprised as you are. It's probably because my brain tried to block out those other Sherman years. Love the guy as a person. Neutral to negative as a Coach and hated him as a GM.

By the way, +1 for all that research you did. Good stuff.

"macbob" wrote:



I started rooting for the Packers back in the Lombardi days. I fondly remember the Packers Sweep days and wish our team had a little more pound it down your throat, stop us if you can personality, which they did back then and recaptured it some in 2003. Remembering 2003, I had the perception that Sherman ran a lot more than he actually did. And I agree with your perceptions of Sherman (though I might have gone with neutral to positive as a coach).
porky88
14 years ago
I'm not sure how the stats lineup, but I recall the Packers starting slow in 2003 and then discovering their running game. That then propelled them to being a really good team. To this day, that was Mike Sherman's strongest team IMO.

I think if you look at the numbers, you'll see Sherman learned to run the ball later in the year, when the Packers finished the season 7-2 and scored 30-plus in their final four games.
http://www.row12.com/ 
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zombieslayer
14 years ago


I started rooting for the Packers back in the Lombardi days. I fondly remember the Packers Sweep days and wish our team had a little more pound it down your throat, stop us if you can personality, which they did back then and recaptured it some in 2003. Remembering 2003, I had the perception that Sherman ran a lot more than he actually did. And I agree with your perceptions of Sherman (though I might have gone with neutral to positive as a coach).

"macbob" wrote:



Well Macbob, I'll tell you the same thing I told Cheesey then. I envy people of your generation.

I started following the Pack as a kid in 1976. We were horrible. I always wore my Packers stuff to school even though people made fun of us as being one of the worst teams. It was especially bad in the early 80s when the Niners started winning SBs. Then they had things to brag about. We never did.

Made it to the Playoffs in 1982 and I loved that year. So many awesome memories. Thus my hated for the Cows.

James Lofton was my favorite player ever and when I found out he was traded to the Raiders, it was a painful experience.

So I grew up with my favorite team sucking. Didn't catch the glory years. Until this young kid named Brett Favre came along and everything changed. That's when I could flip-flop it back on the Niners fan. "Hey, we beat knocked you guys out of the Playoffs, AGAIN."

That felt good.

Back to the topic, I never quite forgave Sherman for punting on 4th and 1 from their 40. We had the elite OL. We had 3 RBs with 5.0+ averages. We could have pounded for that yard and they wouldn't have stopped us. But we punted.

That's one of those things I just can't forgive him for. Love the guy as a person. But that killed it for me as a coach.

When we punted, I had a rot gut feeling that we'd lose the game, even when we had them at 4th and 26. I think we angered the football Gods.
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macbob
14 years ago

Well Macbob, I'll tell you the same thing I told Cheesey then. I envy people of your generation.

I started following the Pack as a kid in 1976. We were horrible. I always wore my Packers stuff to school even though people made fun of us as being one of the worst teams. It was especially bad in the early 80s when the Niners started winning SBs. Then they had things to brag about. We never did.

Made it to the Playoffs in 1982 and I loved that year. So many awesome memories. Thus my hated for the Cows.

James Lofton was my favorite player ever and when I found out he was traded to the Raiders, it was a painful experience.

So I grew up with my favorite team sucking. Didn't catch the glory years. Until this young kid named Brett Favre came along and everything changed. That's when I could flip-flop it back on the Niners fan. "Hey, we beat knocked you guys out of the Playoffs, AGAIN."

That felt good.

Back to the topic, I never quite forgave Sherman for punting on 4th and 1 from their 40. We had the elite OL. We had 3 RBs with 5.0+ averages. We could have pounded for that yard and they wouldn't have stopped us. But we punted.

That's one of those things I just can't forgive him for. Love the guy as a person. But that killed it for me as a coach.

When we punted, I had a rot gut feeling that we'd lose the game, even when we had them at 4th and 26. I think we angered the football Gods.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



Zombie, you did a terrific job capturing those 20 years of bottom-dwelling (those years REALLY sucked).

On the Philly game--all year, our offense was our strength, and our defense kept letting us down. It's 4th down, less than 1 yard at the Eagles' 40 yd line. 2:00 minutes left in the game, and the Eagles are out of timeouts. The Packers have 210 yards rushing in the game to that point, with Green contributing 156 of those yards, and are up by 7. Get a 1st down, and the game is over.

I never have understood Sherman's decision to punt it and put it in the hands of our defense (our weak-link all year), when you've got the opportunity to run out the clock. And then the punt was only good for 20 yds, because it went into the end zone for a touchback. After the game, Sherman tried to say the decision was sound because we got them into a 4th and 26 position, but that didn't hold much water given the 1st and 10 after the 4th and 26--like all year long, you couldn't rely on the defense, it was suspect.

+1. You could have been reading my mind with your thoughts in this thread.

edit: as you can tell, I may need therapy as it's taking a little while to get over it...
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