oh for fucks sake. get over yourself. this is quite possibly the most insulting thing i, as an atheist, could read. yet i'm sure you see absolutely nothing patronizing or insulting about it...since your belief tells you how right you are. if you want a glimpse at one of my top 10 reasons i hate religion...take a close look at your post. oh...and btw, our founding fathers were primarly atheist, agnostic...and completely for the separation of church and state.

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." -John Adams

"As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of government to protect all conscientious protesters thereof, and I know of no other business government has to do therewith." - Thomas Paine

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."- Thomas Paine

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." - Thomas Paine

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error
all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison

"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.'' - James Madison

i mean...i could keep going but maybe you see the pattern here?

---

+1

Twinkie - I really liked your post. While I do consider myself a christian (I have doubts about it all and to be honest if there is even a God).

It seems that the people that founded our country like you said wanted a separation between church and state because they came from places where the church dictated things on others that well many times was not good.

... I can understand why trippster said what he did in your quote of him. We have many religions in our nation and some believe in certain ways.

i am just sick and tired of being patronized and looked down upon because i am an atheist. as if i have no moral grounding because i don't believe in "God". give me a break. i've done charity work all my life, i help old ladies cross the street (yes, i've literally done this) and i consider myself more genuinely caring and ethical than some religious people i know (or have seen or read about), who are often found doing some of the most violent and horrific shit i've ever heard about...throughout the pages of history.

while i don't really believe in limiting myself to labels and i am not a part of any group, if i had to i would consider myself a positive existentialist and a humanist ("Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without theism and other supernatural beliefs, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity."). if you think i need your God in order to treat myself and the world around me with the utmost respect...then i think you need to do a little meditating and soul-searching yourself (whoever you may be).

---

Twinkie, I think you need to get over yourself.

It is my opinion. It is what I believe. I don't recall it referring to you in any way. A little touchy arent you?

I too can play the "the founding fathers were all..." game too.

I can do this for just about every member of the founding fathers. All documented.

John Adams:
The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.
[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.
John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817] |

Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered do we imagine we no longer need His assistance? [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."

Thomas Jefferson
God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever. (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jeffersons Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]

Patrick Henry
Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
--The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.


Read the Northwest Ordinance. Read George Washington's farewell address. After reading these documents, formulate a tentative position on the faith and intent of our founders. Do this apart from any of your previously held beliefs. Then look up the religious affliliations of our presidents. Are any of them Jewish, Muslim, or atheistic? How many attended church? Then look at our currency, "In God we trust"...is this a deistic belief? Do you know what Deism is? Study deistic beliefs and compare them to what you see on our coins. Investigate Supreme court rulings from the first 100 years of our nation. Was Christianity and religion alientated from public life? What did the US Supreme Court say? These cases and the written opinions have also been wonderfully preserved

Hate it, love it, it doesn't matter. God and christianity is what this country was founded on. It was an intregal part of this country til the sixties. Undeniable.

"I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, SO HELP ME GOD"

our money "IN GOD WE TRUST" .

We left the British to be able to practice freedom OF religion. Not freedom FROM religion.

And as far as your "for fuck's sake," I would say that eternally, unless you change your belief, you are the one fucked.

But hey, that is just my opinion...or is it?

---

Nice post Tripp. Well researched and written.

+1

EDITED:

i had a whole stupid thing typed up...but then i realized it's not worth the debate. it could continue ad infinitum and that is just not (despite how i often appear) how i want to spend my time here (i provided a link a few posts down which address all that quoting business). just realize, Trippster, that you need to think before you speak...because you might be throwing somebody under the bus who could one day be a great friend, ally or personal hero.

accusing this country of sinking into immoral territory over a lack of faith or "God" inherently insults every non-believer out there since you are assuming that "God" or a belief in him is what makes a person "good" (or a good person better). it is a self-righteous (not to mention incredibly short-sighted) judgment. if you think you have the right to insult people this way, i could hardly say your mode of living is very "Christian".

and much to my dismay, i couldn't resist responding to this one bundle of words you presented (i suppose i am very easily-trolled):



i have been studying all debates, from all sides, on this subject for years. i've written papers and essays for college on or relating to the subject at hand. it is of major interest to me and has been for a long time.



no, though i personally believe that Jefferson could be considered an "atheist who believed in the basic philosophies of Christ", though maybe atheist is admittedly projecting too much of myself on him. i would consider him more agnostic than deist or religious though, certainly.



attending church does not make you religious. i know plenty who go for various reasons, many which have more to do with family and social obligations.



it very possibly could be. if you are defining "God" as a deist you could be saying "I trust in the unifying nature of the deity behind the universe" or some such bit of sub-poetry. i don't know. i'm at work, don't expect too much eloquence from me...but, yes, i believe it could be interpreted many ways (though our currency did not contain this message uniformly until 1956).



how incredibly patronizing.



alienated? why would this prove your point correctly? God and the laws of Christianity were voted out of the constitution unanimously. so while not necessarily alienated, there was a very deliberate reason to separate the two.

---

wait. ok, i just read your currency debate. you...you aren't really making that argument are you? we could go on about that one all day, we could.

---

Well, I still say and believe that if our youth were to be better educated on how the nation became what it was today, accurately and with little to no bias that we'd as a whole appreciate our freedoms and "luxuries" more.

---

p.s. here. i'll leave you with this link, as i believe it covers the subject as much as possible...at the very least--in regards to the o.p. and the debate of "God" and country, etc.

Founding Fathers - Christian or not? 

---

I've said it once, I've said it twice, I'll say it again. I believe that if our youth were to be better educated on how the nation became what it was today, accurately and with little to no bias that we'd as a whole appreciate our freedoms and "luxuries" more.

---