Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member Topic Starter
14 years ago
Just read a story about Roger Clemens getting indicted for lying to and "obstruction" of Congress.

I'm not a fan of Clemens. And I'm sure there's a law on the books to the effect that one can't obstruct Congress.

But my question is a bit different: should it be against the law to lie to a Congressional committee.

Or, if you want to get even more radical, why should a Congressional committee have the power to issue subpoenas?

Discuss.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
zombieslayer
14 years ago
Presidents do it all the time.

Let me add, so do heads of major corporations. I'd love to see the people who did scare tactics to get Congress to vote for the bailouts get indicted for lying.
My man Donald Driver
UserPostedImage
(thanks to Pack93z for the pic)
2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. 🇹🇹 🇲🇲 🇦🇷
Porforis
14 years ago

Presidents do it all the time.

Let me add, so do heads of major corporations. I'd love to see the people who did scare tactics to get Congress to vote for the bailouts get indicted for lying.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



Lying to congress is one thing, lying while under oath before a congressional committee is another thing.
4PackGirl
14 years ago
i find it rather ironic that they don't enjoy being lied to. politicians=liars. nuff said.
IronMan
14 years ago

Presidents do it all the time.

Let me add, so do heads of major corporations. I'd love to see the people who did scare tactics to get Congress to vote for the bailouts get indicted for lying.

"Porforis" wrote:



Lying to congress is one thing, lying while under oath before a congressional committee is another thing.

"zombieslayer" wrote:

This.
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member Topic Starter
14 years ago
Should lying under oath generally be a crime, then?

Or is there something special about doing so when Congress administers the oath. Should Congress be able to have oath-breaking enforced more than the rest of us?

Perjury is essentially lying under oath. But there is a difference between lying under oath to a court of law (to which under our constitution gives the judicial power) and lying under oath to you or me (to whom it doesn't). I can sue you for breach of your promise if we have a contractual relationship, but that's a civil matter not a criminal one the way perjury is.

Why is lying under oath to Congress more like lying to the court under oath than it is like lying to me under oath? And should it be?

I don't think the answer is at all obvious here. And I personally would argue that criminalizing lying to congress, under oath or otherwise, is the wrong side of the fence. For two reasons.

First, Congress, unlike me, has an intimate relationship with the executive "enforcement" wing of the state -- they make the laws that enable enforcement of their legislative will. In short, they can by the nature of what they do put the threat of force behind their will -- they don't need yet another threat-making ability of "obstruction".

Think of what would happen if someone refuses to testify to Congress under oath. Can you say "no, thanks, sorry, not today" without being thought of having something evil to hide? I don't think so. The only people who do that are criminals and unpatriotic slugs. And Congresscritters, like the bullies they are, like all bullies, are going to encourage with their control over the big elevated chairs and the ears of every network microphone for us to think just that.

When an essential part of political participation should be the ability to say "none of your fucking business." If I'm a criminal, it's not the legislature's job to bring me to justice and make me talk. It's the judicial system.

Second, Congressional committees aren't "fact finders" the way the courts are. They aren't bound by rules of civil and criminal procedure, or by the Federal Rules of Evidence. They are politicians with agendas. They are not disinterested appliers of the law. Their interest is not with applying the law to the facts, their interest is making the laws. Usually in lines with their particular biases and ideologies and interests.

Judges are not unbiased or free of these problems of course. But unlike congresscritters, they don't decide civil cases, much less criminal ones, as advocates. Congressmen and Congresswomen do.

Morally, should I be expected to tell the truth. Sure. To everyone.

Legally, should I be subject to jail if I lie under oath. No.

Not unless the person I'm lying to is "someone special". Like a court.

IMO, Congressional committees fail to meet the basic "someone special" requirement.

Not unless your definition of someone special is "fertilizer producer."
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
So in a nutshell, Wade, you would argue that Congress should not be able to hand out subpoenas because it is not, in fact, a judicial body? I can buy that argument. When were the first congressional subpoenas handed out, and has this practice ever been challenged (and defended) in court?
UserPostedImage
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member Topic Starter
14 years ago

So in a nutshell, Wade, you would argue that Congress should not be able to hand out subpoenas because it is not, in fact, a judicial body? I can buy that argument. When were the first congressional subpoenas handed out, and has this practice ever been challenged (and defended) in court?

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



On the historical question, I do not know. Though "lying to the king" has long been considered a crime. And I don't think it has been limited to lying to the king when he acts in his judicial capacity. :)

As for your first question. I'm about 96 percent there. I am open to people explaining why "not just" judicial bodies should have subpoena power (which is part of the reason I started the thread). But I don't know what the other grounds would be.

Because it seems to me they would have to get past one of the big reasons we have separation of powers and of functions in the American system: namely, that those who make rules like to set up rules so that they get their own way.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Fan Shout
Zero2Cool (14-Aug) : Packers RB Josh Jacobs ranked No. 33 in NFL 'Top 100'
dfosterf (13-Aug) : The LVN Musgrave collision- Andy Herman said Musgrave seemed to be the one most impacted injury-wise
dfosterf (13-Aug) : a lower back injury
dfosterf (13-Aug) : Doubs says he's "fine" after injury scare. Some reported it as z
Mucky Tundra (13-Aug) : With LVN that is; need to see what happens in the next practice
Mucky Tundra (13-Aug) : beast, reading about what happened, it sounded like one of those "two guys collide and are moving slow afterwards" type of deals
beast (12-Aug) : I believe Musgrave has been injured every single season since at least a Sophomore in highschool
packerfanoutwest (12-Aug) : Matt LaFleur: “Highly unlikely” Jordan Love plays more this preseason
dfosterf (12-Aug) : Doubs, Savion Williams, LVN, Musgrave all banged up to one degree or another, missing one here I forget
Zero2Cool (12-Aug) : RB Tyrion Davis-Price is signing with the Green Bay Packers.
Zero2Cool (12-Aug) : zero help, dominated. preseason
beast (12-Aug) : QB Jordan Love has surgery
beast (12-Aug) : Martha said Morgan had a lot of help, I didn't watch the OL so I can't say.
Zero2Cool (10-Aug) : Packers LT Jordan Morgan did not allow a single pressure across 23 pass-blocking snaps vs. Jets last night, per PFF
Mucky Tundra (10-Aug) : With buckeye and the reasonable couple, we're currently sitting at 10
buckeyepackfan (10-Aug) : Just posted to re-up on our FFL.
Zero2Cool (10-Aug) : If healthy after, then thats all I care. Well, no drops would be nice
wpr (10-Aug) : I made it through the 1st Q.
dfosterf (10-Aug) : Just gotta figure out how.
dfosterf (10-Aug) : Could have been a worse start, so there is that.
beast (10-Aug) : Yeah, someone tell the Packers football season has started, seems like they weren't ready for it
Mucky Tundra (10-Aug) : Sooooooo many penalties
Mucky Tundra (10-Aug) : It may only be preseason, but this game is a trip to the dentist
Zero2Cool (10-Aug) : Packers do bad -- FREAK OUT!!!!!!
Zero2Cool (10-Aug) : Packers do good -- eh only preseason
dfosterf (10-Aug) : Well that half was fun
Zero2Cool (10-Aug) : Great, zayne is down
Zero2Cool (9-Aug) : 13 minutes away from kickkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkoffff
Zero2Cool (9-Aug) : Had Celebration of Life for my uncle up north. wicked rain hope it dont come south
Mucky Tundra (9-Aug) : THE GREEN BAY PACKERS ARE PLAYING FOOTBALL TONIGHT!!!!!! THIS IS NOT A DRILL!!!!
Zero2Cool (9-Aug) : Woo-hoo
TheKanataThrilla (9-Aug) : NFL Network is broadcasting the game tonight, but not in Canada. Not sure why as no local television is showing the game.
beast (8-Aug) : But the Return from IR designations had to be applied by the 53 man cutdown.
beast (8-Aug) : It's a new rule, so it's not clear, but my understanding was that they could be IR'd at any time
Mucky Tundra (8-Aug) : *had to be IRed at 53
Mucky Tundra (8-Aug) : beast, I thought the designate return from IR players had to be IR at cutdowns to 53, not before
beast (8-Aug) : It's a brand new rule, either last season or this season, prior, all pre-season IRs were done for the season
beast (8-Aug) : But the Packers would have to use one for their return from IR spots on him, when they cut down to 53.
beast (8-Aug) : I think the NFL recently changed the IR rules, so maybe the season might not be over for OL Glover.
Zero2Cool (8-Aug) : Packers star Howton, first NFLPA prez, dies at 95 😔
dfosterf (8-Aug) : Apparently it is too complicated for several to follow your simple instructions, but I digress
dfosterf (8-Aug) : Zero- Did you see what I posted about Voice of Reason and his wife? She posted over at fleaflicker that they are both "In"
Zero2Cool (7-Aug) : Well, not crazy, it makes sense. Crazy I didn't notice/find it earlier
Zero2Cool (7-Aug) : it's crazy how one stored procedure to get data bogged everything down for speed here
dfosterf (7-Aug) : to herd cats or goldfish without a bowl. They reminded me of the annual assembly of our fantasy league
dfosterf (7-Aug) : out on a field trip, outfitting them with little yellow smocks. Most of the little folk were well behaved, but several were like trying
dfosterf (7-Aug) : Yesterday my wife and I spent the afternoon on the waterfront here in Alexandria, Va. A daycare company took about 15 three/four year olds
wpr (7-Aug) : seems faster. yay
dfosterf (7-Aug) : Wife of reason posted on the in/out thread on fleaflicker that both she and vor are in
Zero2Cool (7-Aug) : This page was generated in 0.135 seconds.
Please sign in to use Fan Shout
2025 Packers Schedule
Sunday, Sep 7 @ 3:25 PM
LIONS
Thursday, Sep 11 @ 7:15 PM
COMMANDERS
Sunday, Sep 21 @ 12:00 PM
Browns
Sunday, Sep 28 @ 7:20 PM
Cowboys
Sunday, Oct 12 @ 3:25 PM
BENGALS
Sunday, Oct 19 @ 3:25 PM
Cardinals
Sunday, Oct 26 @ 7:20 PM
Steelers
Sunday, Nov 2 @ 12:00 PM
PANTHERS
Monday, Nov 10 @ 7:15 PM
EAGLES
Sunday, Nov 16 @ 12:00 PM
Giants
Sunday, Nov 23 @ 12:00 PM
VIKINGS
Thursday, Nov 27 @ 12:00 PM
Lions
Sunday, Dec 7 @ 12:00 PM
BEARS
Sunday, Dec 14 @ 3:25 PM
Broncos
Friday, Dec 19 @ 11:00 PM
Bears
Friday, Dec 26 @ 11:00 PM
RAVENS
Saturday, Jan 3 @ 11:00 PM
Vikings
Recent Topics
11h / Feedback, Suggestions and Issues / Zero2Cool

14h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

14h / Around The NFL / Mucky Tundra

13-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / dfosterf

12-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

12-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

12-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

12-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

12-Aug / Random Babble / Zero2Cool

11-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / bboystyle

11-Aug / Around The NFL / Martha Careful

11-Aug / Around The NFL / packerfanoutwest

10-Aug / Fantasy Sports Talk / buckeyepackfan

10-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / dfosterf

10-Aug / Around The NFL / Mucky Tundra

Copyright © 2006 - 2025 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.