Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member Topic Starter
14 years ago
Just read a story about Roger Clemens getting indicted for lying to and "obstruction" of Congress.

I'm not a fan of Clemens. And I'm sure there's a law on the books to the effect that one can't obstruct Congress.

But my question is a bit different: should it be against the law to lie to a Congressional committee.

Or, if you want to get even more radical, why should a Congressional committee have the power to issue subpoenas?

Discuss.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
zombieslayer
14 years ago
Presidents do it all the time.

Let me add, so do heads of major corporations. I'd love to see the people who did scare tactics to get Congress to vote for the bailouts get indicted for lying.
My man Donald Driver
UserPostedImage
(thanks to Pack93z for the pic)
2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. 🇹🇹 🇲🇲 🇦🇷
Porforis
14 years ago

Presidents do it all the time.

Let me add, so do heads of major corporations. I'd love to see the people who did scare tactics to get Congress to vote for the bailouts get indicted for lying.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



Lying to congress is one thing, lying while under oath before a congressional committee is another thing.
4PackGirl
14 years ago
i find it rather ironic that they don't enjoy being lied to. politicians=liars. nuff said.
IronMan
14 years ago

Presidents do it all the time.

Let me add, so do heads of major corporations. I'd love to see the people who did scare tactics to get Congress to vote for the bailouts get indicted for lying.

"Porforis" wrote:



Lying to congress is one thing, lying while under oath before a congressional committee is another thing.

"zombieslayer" wrote:

This.
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member Topic Starter
14 years ago
Should lying under oath generally be a crime, then?

Or is there something special about doing so when Congress administers the oath. Should Congress be able to have oath-breaking enforced more than the rest of us?

Perjury is essentially lying under oath. But there is a difference between lying under oath to a court of law (to which under our constitution gives the judicial power) and lying under oath to you or me (to whom it doesn't). I can sue you for breach of your promise if we have a contractual relationship, but that's a civil matter not a criminal one the way perjury is.

Why is lying under oath to Congress more like lying to the court under oath than it is like lying to me under oath? And should it be?

I don't think the answer is at all obvious here. And I personally would argue that criminalizing lying to congress, under oath or otherwise, is the wrong side of the fence. For two reasons.

First, Congress, unlike me, has an intimate relationship with the executive "enforcement" wing of the state -- they make the laws that enable enforcement of their legislative will. In short, they can by the nature of what they do put the threat of force behind their will -- they don't need yet another threat-making ability of "obstruction".

Think of what would happen if someone refuses to testify to Congress under oath. Can you say "no, thanks, sorry, not today" without being thought of having something evil to hide? I don't think so. The only people who do that are criminals and unpatriotic slugs. And Congresscritters, like the bullies they are, like all bullies, are going to encourage with their control over the big elevated chairs and the ears of every network microphone for us to think just that.

When an essential part of political participation should be the ability to say "none of your fucking business." If I'm a criminal, it's not the legislature's job to bring me to justice and make me talk. It's the judicial system.

Second, Congressional committees aren't "fact finders" the way the courts are. They aren't bound by rules of civil and criminal procedure, or by the Federal Rules of Evidence. They are politicians with agendas. They are not disinterested appliers of the law. Their interest is not with applying the law to the facts, their interest is making the laws. Usually in lines with their particular biases and ideologies and interests.

Judges are not unbiased or free of these problems of course. But unlike congresscritters, they don't decide civil cases, much less criminal ones, as advocates. Congressmen and Congresswomen do.

Morally, should I be expected to tell the truth. Sure. To everyone.

Legally, should I be subject to jail if I lie under oath. No.

Not unless the person I'm lying to is "someone special". Like a court.

IMO, Congressional committees fail to meet the basic "someone special" requirement.

Not unless your definition of someone special is "fertilizer producer."
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
So in a nutshell, Wade, you would argue that Congress should not be able to hand out subpoenas because it is not, in fact, a judicial body? I can buy that argument. When were the first congressional subpoenas handed out, and has this practice ever been challenged (and defended) in court?
UserPostedImage
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member Topic Starter
14 years ago

So in a nutshell, Wade, you would argue that Congress should not be able to hand out subpoenas because it is not, in fact, a judicial body? I can buy that argument. When were the first congressional subpoenas handed out, and has this practice ever been challenged (and defended) in court?

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



On the historical question, I do not know. Though "lying to the king" has long been considered a crime. And I don't think it has been limited to lying to the king when he acts in his judicial capacity. :)

As for your first question. I'm about 96 percent there. I am open to people explaining why "not just" judicial bodies should have subpoena power (which is part of the reason I started the thread). But I don't know what the other grounds would be.

Because it seems to me they would have to get past one of the big reasons we have separation of powers and of functions in the American system: namely, that those who make rules like to set up rules so that they get their own way.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Fan Shout
packerfanoutwest (1m) : 49ers are underdogs at Packers, ending streak of 36 straight games as favorites
Zero2Cool (7h) : 49ers might be down their QB, DL, TE and LT?
packerfanoutwest (21h) : Jaire Alexander says he has a torn PCL
Zero2Cool (20-Nov) : Even with the context it's ... what?
Mucky Tundra (20-Nov) : Matt LaFleur without context: “I don’t wanna pat you on the butt and you poop in my hand.”
beast (20-Nov) : We brought in a former Packers OL coach to help evaluate OL as a scout
beast (20-Nov) : Jets have been pretty good at picking DL
Zero2Cool (20-Nov) : He landed good players thanks to high draft slot. He isn't good.
Zero2Cool (20-Nov) : He can shove his knowledge up his ass. He knows nothing.
beast (20-Nov) : More knowledge, just like bring in the Jets head coach
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : What? Why? Huh?
beast (19-Nov) : I wonder if the Packers might to try to bring Douglas in through Milt Hendrickson/Ravens connections
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : The Jets fired Joe Douglas, per sources
packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : Jets are a mess......
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : Pretty sure Jets fired their scouting staff and just pluck former Packers.
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : Jets sign Anders Carlson to their 53.
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : When you cycle the weeks, the total over remains for season. But you get your W/L for that selected week. Confusing.
packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : the total and percentage are the same as the previous weeks
packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : the total and percentage are the same as the previous weeks
packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : the totals are accurate..nrvrtmind
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : I don't follow what you are saying. The totals are not the same as last week.
packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : ok so then wht are the totals the same as last week?
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : NFL Pick'em is auto updated when NFL Scores tab is clicked
Martha Careful (19-Nov) : The offense was OK. Let's not forget the Bear defense is very very good.
packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : Who updates the leaderboard on NFLPickem?
beast (19-Nov) : Has the Packers offense been worse since the former Jets coach joined the Packers?
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : Offense gets his ass in gear, this could be good.
Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : Backup QB helped with three wins. Special Teams contributed to three wins.
bboystyle (18-Nov) : Lions played outside thats why. They scored 16 and 17 in the only 2 outside games this year
Zero2Cool (18-Nov) : The rest of the NFL is catching up to Packers ... kicking is an issue throughout league
packerfanoutwest (18-Nov) : Packers DL Kenny Clark: We knew 'we were going to block' Bears' game-winning field goal attempt
Zero2Cool (18-Nov) : Lions seem to be throttling everyone, but only (only) got 24 lol maybe the rain is why
Zero2Cool (18-Nov) : Packers vs Lions game doesn't seem so bad.
beast (18-Nov) : Dennis Green "They are what we thought they were, and we let them off the hook!"
Martha Careful (17-Nov) : comment of the day Z2Cool "Bears better than we want to admit. Packers worse than we think. It's facts."
Mucky Tundra (17-Nov) : my worst case scenario: Bears fix their oline and get a coach like Johnson from the Lions and his scheme
Zero2Cool (17-Nov) : Bears get OL fixed amd we might have a problem
buckeyepackfan (17-Nov) : Pretty sure they already have scouting reports on guys who aren't even starting for their college team. The future is now for me.
buckeyepackfan (17-Nov) : I tend to let Gute and Co. Worry about the future.
beast (17-Nov) : That's great news and Packers need to keep upgrading their OL, DL and DBs this off-season, so missing one guy doesn't kill them
beast (17-Nov) : That's great news and Packers need to keep upgrading their OL, DL and DBs this off-season, so missing one guy doesn't kill them
buckeyepackfan (17-Nov) : Jaire and Evans Williams are both ACTIVE! Good news.
Martha Careful (17-Nov) : The badgers really need to change the whole offensive scheme. No draws no screens plus the quarterback is marginal
Cheesey (17-Nov) : If the Badgers had a decent QB, they would have won. The guy can't hit a wide open receiver
Martha Careful (17-Nov) : chop block
Martha Careful (17-Nov) : there was a very questionable job Block call that upon viewing replay was very borderline
beast (17-Nov) : How so? (I didn't watch)
Zero2Cool (17-Nov) : Badgers got hosed vs Oregon
packerfanoutwest (16-Nov) : damn,he hasn't played since week 2
Mucky Tundra (15-Nov) : poor guy can't catch a break
Please sign in to use Fan Shout
2024 Packers Schedule
Friday, Sep 6 @ 7:15 PM
Eagles
Sunday, Sep 15 @ 12:00 PM
COLTS
Sunday, Sep 22 @ 12:00 PM
Titans
Sunday, Sep 29 @ 12:00 PM
VIKINGS
Sunday, Oct 6 @ 3:25 PM
Rams
Sunday, Oct 13 @ 12:00 PM
CARDINALS
Sunday, Oct 20 @ 12:00 PM
TEXANS
Sunday, Oct 27 @ 12:00 PM
Jaguars
Sunday, Nov 3 @ 3:25 PM
LIONS
Sunday, Nov 17 @ 12:00 PM
Bears
Sunday, Nov 24 @ 3:25 PM
49ERS
Thursday, Nov 28 @ 7:20 PM
DOLPHINS
Thursday, Dec 5 @ 7:15 PM
Lions
Sunday, Dec 15 @ 7:20 PM
Seahawks
Monday, Dec 23 @ 7:15 PM
SAINTS
Sunday, Dec 29 @ 12:00 PM
Vikings
Saturday, Jan 4 @ 11:00 PM
BEARS
Recent Topics
9h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Martha Careful

23h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Martha Careful

21-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

21-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

21-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

21-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

20-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

20-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

20-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

20-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

20-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

19-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / dfosterf

19-Nov / Featured Content / Zero2Cool

19-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Martha Careful

19-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

Headlines
Copyright © 2006 - 2024 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.