Zero2Cool
14 years ago

Zero - Anti-gunners use that argument all the time. I beat someone up once when I was carrying a gun. A bunch of times when I had a pocket knife (and got my *** kicked a bunch of times when carrying a pocket knife as well).

I never once thought to use the weapons. I had pocket knives in school because in my generation, boys did that. They brought pocket knives to school. Anyone who whipped it out and actually used it on someone was a pussy.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



You're not ever American citizen so jump off that horse.

Fact is, on any given day, people will react differently in different situations. Some people are more calm than others. Some will handle the same situation differently depending on what has happened during their day.

Hell, look at drivers as a prime example. You accidentally cut someone off, they are hot tempered and they risk their life speeding up and going around you ... why? To express their anger at what you did. If they had a gun, who's to say they wouldn't use it? It HAS happened before.

Just the other day we watched a video where a guy drove his car through a gas station because he was pissed off at the clerk for something minor.


Now throw in the confines of an airplane coupled with the predictably unpredictable human nature plus a knife in such situations.

Would I feel more comfortable with a knife in my pocket? Yes, that's why I sleep with a hunting knife between my mattresses.

I'm not comfortable knowing the guy behind me who just got fired from his job who's hating life has one also.


People do stupid things for stupid reasons. Remember that guy who was laid off and killed his wife, three kids and then himself because he didn't want his family living in poverty?

Just because you wouldn't do it, doesn't mean the guy next to you ... wouldn't either. We have to be more open minded and accepting of the unexpected.

Edit,

The truth about Flight 93 is it was shot down by our own plane. It's a shame as we (the good guys) most likely took it back. We can only speculate, but they most likely attacked with pillows and closed fists. I've only been punched by three people at a time. I can't imagine being hit by 10 at a time. That would suck, no matter how tough you are.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



I'm going to ask for the source, not because I don't believe you, but because I haven't ever heard of that before and I'm interested.


I can't believe how everyone else (besides Wade) thinks it's okay to be fondled by the state for security. My friend's 14-year-old daughter had her breasts fondled by the TSA pervert. How does that make our country safer?

"zombieslayer" wrote:


Who said they are okay with being fondled? I haven't been fondled, yet. I'm fine with taking my shoes off, taking my hoodie off, pulling out my laptops, leaving my suitcase open and the requirements for healthy/beauty. I'm down with that, its five minutes, tops. Big deal.


The reason why they "have" to fondle or what have you is because some jackoffs use kids as weapons and put things in their orifices and places of that nature.

You're blaming the people trying to prevent what has already happened from happening again in the future. Where's your venom for those who CAUSED this reaction?
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Pack93z
14 years ago
Flight 93 "evidence"... make your own call..

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/shootdown.html?q=shootdown.html 
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Zero2Cool
14 years ago

Flight 93 "evidence"... make your own call..

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/shootdown.html?q=shootdown.html 

"pack93z" wrote:



Interesting link, thank you.

I'd have to say it was shot down as well based on the quotes, not the physical evidence. A plane crashing can throw around a lot of debris all over.

I can also understand the Government saying the plane was brought down by passengers to give them a more 'heroic' taste than the Government admitting to shooting it down. I would give the Government a plus on this as I think the heroic passenger story is better for the public, albeit that goes against my moral of GIVE US THE FREAKIN TRUTH.
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zombieslayer
14 years ago
Zero - the vast majority of people, ESPECIALLY legal gun owners, do not resort to violence. The whole guy gets cut off in traffic scenario is something the anti-gun people cooked up to get the average Joe voter scared of guns. In reality, an armed populace is much safer than an unarmed populace unless you have a complete police state a la Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Russia, or today's China, but I'm pretty sure most intelligent people wouldn't want that either.

Pack - thanks for the link. It being shot down is speculating but looking at what I've seen (and yes, I haven't seen everything), it appears that it was shot down.

The bad guys will get weapons on planes. Why is this even a discussion?

I want the same shot they got. Even an old lady with a knife can cut a man from behind. More knives = less chance for success for terrorists.

Zero again - going back to the fondled part, my friend's 14-year-old daughter had the TSA retard reach under her bra and see if she was carrying something in her bra. WTF.

The extra 5 minutes adds up when there are thousands of people. I'm sure a decent percentage of the folks who had to wait 3 hours in Vegas said "fuck this" and were less likely to come back to Vegas.

The TSA is bad for business. Really, really bad. Time is money, and TSA wastes peoples' time.
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Zero2Cool
14 years ago

Zero - the vast majority of people, ESPECIALLY legal gun owners, do not resort to violence. The whole guy gets cut off in traffic scenario is something the anti-gun people cooked up to get the average Joe voter scared of guns. In reality, an armed populace is much safer than an unarmed populace unless you have a complete police state a la Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Russia, or today's China, but I'm pretty sure most intelligent people wouldn't want that either.

Pack - thanks for the link. It being shot down is speculating but looking at what I've seen (and yes, I haven't seen everything), it appears that it was shot down.

The bad guys will get weapons on planes. Why is this even a discussion?

I want the same shot they got. Even an old lady with a knife can cut a man from behind. More knives = less chance for success for terrorists.

Zero again - going back to the fondled part, my friend's 14-year-old daughter had the TSA retard reach under her bra and see if she was carrying something in her bra. WTF.

The extra 5 minutes adds up when there are thousands of people. I'm sure a decent percentage of the folks who had to wait 3 hours in Vegas said "fuck this" and were less likely to come back to Vegas.

The TSA is bad for business. Really, really bad. Time is money, and TSA wastes peoples' time.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



I'd like you to know ... no one gave me my thoughts, I thought of those on my own. It's things I think about it. I'm not afraid of a guy who's bigger/stronger than me, I'm more likely to be afraid of the guy who's crazy and unpredictable.
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Formo
14 years ago
I love how people instantly think that getting your permit to carry a firearm is a walk in the park.

Guess what, kids.. You have to take a course for such. You have to know your gun, and it has to be registered. As soon as it's registered, the law will ALWAYS treat you as the culprit in any altercation (i.e. say you have to pull it out to deter a mugging, you'd be tossed the book). And to make matters worse.. if you have mace or any other self-protectant device, you are taught to NEVER carry your gun.

Just because someone has a handgun, legally.. Doesn't mean they are turned into some immediate gun slinging gang-banger.

With that being said.. Yes, I'd much rather let everyone carry whatever weapons they want with them on the plane. You're still more likely to die in an accident on the way home than have the plane hijacked or get your throat slit by some dude having a bad day.
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Cheesey
14 years ago
Well....can't believe i missed all this "fun".
I have a strong belief in God. Most people that do, want others to have that same relationship with Him. If that makes me some kind of idiot in some people's minds, so be it.
I also feel sorry for those that don't have that relationship. Why? Because all they have is what is here. Nothing to look forward to after they die.

And if what Tripp (and others) said is true, you will lose ALOT upon your death. If he (and I) are wrong, what have we lost? NOTHING. We will die, become "worm food" and that will be it. We won't even KNOW we were ever wrong. And those that don't believe as we do? IF we are right, you will have forever to face how wrong you were. That's a LONG time. If you are right? You won't even know you WERE right, correct?
Someone wanting you to have the peace that we feel, does that make them bad or stupid people?
It's ok....i have relatives that think i'm stupid for my beliefs. And i don't try to force by beliefs on anyone. But if asked, or the situation is there where I know it's time to speak up, as i'm sure you alreadyknow, i will stand up and be counted.
And i was NOT "indoctrinated" into it. I came to the belief that that Bible was right when i was in my early 20's.
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Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago

Well I think you're full of shit and I like pie, so what's up now?

"Zero2Cool" wrote:



Can people get it up when they're full of shit?

:)

(I love taking things out of context. 🙂 )
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago

So let me get this straight: We are supposed to react to an attack that occurred nigh on a decade ago by treating our own citizens with disrespect? I will never accept such a notion. It is impossible to be both fully free and completely safe. The feeling of safety is nothing more than an illusion anyway. I will cheerfully trade a little of that illusion of safety for the right to live as I see fit.

Don't get me wrong. I love America and I am happy to live here. But I love my wife and girlfriends too, and I'm not afraid to call them out when they're full of shit. I'm definitely not afraid to call my country out when she's full of shit too.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



+1. Good to see someone gets it.

Don't treat me like a criminal in my own country. Period.

If someone goes nuts in a plane, it is EVERYONE'S responsibility to take him down. 9/11 should have never happened. It happened because people were afraid of dying. Being afraid of dying, guess what? They died anyways.

In a terrorist situation, accept you're dead anyways. Just accept it. Then do what needs to be done to take out the mother fucker with you.

The TSA should be abolished. I'd rather have my tax money spent elsewhere, like paying down the deficit. I feel more unease with the TSA retards then before the TSA existed.

I don't want to be touched or fondled. Period. I don't like being touched by strangers.

If the rest of you are content being touched and fondled by strangers to FEEL safer, then I seriously wonder where our country is headed.

Remember what Ben Franklin said about trading Freedom for security. Bad move.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



+1

This is what I was trying to say a few pages back. But you said it much gooder.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago
What is the difference between a "right" and a "privilege."

For me, a right is something that exists by virtum,o9-0e of being a human being. I have a right to believe as I will, no matter how loony my particular beliefs might be. I have a right to call someone a loony, even if they are as smart as Einstein and as wise as Solomon.

A privilege is something that I don't have unless someone else gives it to me. My neighbor gives it to me, perhaps: My neighbor invites me into his house for dinner. That's a privilege, my neighbor's to grant and take away as he wills. Or maybe it's granted by the govenment. Most people would consider a license to practice law or medicine or hair styling is a "privilege" granted by the state.

Your "title" in your real estate is a privilege: almost all "private property" titles are there because of a grant from King or state. And yes, that title is a revocable privilege: the state can take it back. (thanks to the law of eminent domain, only for a "public purpose" and only with compensation.)

On the other hand, it's not clear, at least to me, whether those "public purpose" and "only with compensation" requirements constitute "right" or "privilege".

Privileges can be taken away. Rights cannot.

All that people can do with respect to another's right is stop or limit its exercise. But if the right exists, stopping or limiting its exercise will be an immoral act unless a separate and superseding right is found and unless it is demonstrated that the method protects that separate and superseding right.

Power can infringe a right; it cannot by itself make the infringement moral.

So Shawn's point about "right or privilege" is the real issue here. (His conclusion is wrong, IMO, but he's definitely got the question right.)

Why should air travel be thought a right, rather than a privilege?

My answer is in too steps. First, because "being able to move and travel about" is a right. And second, because "other travel options" are not equivalent.

Why is being able to move and travel about so important? It allows escape from bad situations and allows movement toward better ones. It allows us to associate with who we want to associate with. It allows us to act upon our preferences and our values. You can't pursue "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" unless you are able to move about.

Why are other travel options not equivalent? To be blunt, they're more expensive. Not necessarily in the sense of money, but in the sense of "what must be sacrificed" to do so. I don't need a plane to go to Portugal or to Denver. I can get to either place physically in other ways. But only if I make a lot bigger sacrifices -- Portugal's going to take more time and money to get there by car/ship/train; Denver's going to take more time and dealing with other drivers and getting lost on the highway and dealing with car breakdowns, etc.

If I had no right to travel and move about, none of these "extra costs" would be relevant. But if I do have that general right to travel, they are. Because now those differential costs are being imposed by a restriction on a right. And so the burden has shifted: those wishing to limit my right to travel must explain why they are justified in doing so.

If they don't, then they may still have the power to restrict and shape my choices. But they have no moral authority for doing so.

They have no more moral authority than those who used their power to treat people as serfs. If moving and travelling about is a privilege, then only allowing the serf off the manorial lands under very limited conditions, or not allowing them off at all, then the lord of the manor had moral authority for the practice of serfdom. But if moving and travelling about is a basic right of human beings, then serfdom was morally without authority.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
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