Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago

[i]Qui tacet consentire[/i] -- "Who is silent gives consent."

I firmly believe that if you don't make it abundantly obvious by word and deed that you are refusing consent, you should not be able to prosecute for rape and especially not sexual harassment. There was a recent case in which a couple had been together for over five years. They got drunk, went home, and fucked as usual. By her own admission, the girl didn't utter a peep the entire time and she certainly didn't resist his advances. A few days later she charged the boyfriend with rape. Naturally, he was dumbfounded. I don't know how far the case got, but that kind of thing is not acceptable.

As unfortunate as it may be, it's a truism that in sexual assault cases, it's the victim who's on trial, not the alleged perpetrator. Too many allegations have been proven false over the years for it not to be so.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



Ok, with all due respect to Pope Boniface or whichever Latin jurist who coined the phrase, the bolded statement is bullshit.

It's up there with the presumption that "ignorance of the law is no excuse" in a nation that passes the equivalent of 250 new small-print books of laws every year.

Implying consent from silence has to be the exception, not the rule.

And rape is a far different cause of action than sexual harassment. Even if you accept the notion that sexual harassment should be considered a crime as opposed to a tort (which I personally think is debatable), they are very different crimes. The extent of the offense is greater (it's physical as well as mental anguish, it's bodily invasion as well as distress, it's an act of violence, etc.).

In fact, the "nonconsensual" part of the wrong in the two cases is itself different. What the alleged victim has to consent to is very different.

Moreover, the drunkenness of the victim is not just used as evidence of consent. It's used, and in fact this is its primary use by the defense, whatever they might say to the contrary to get it in as evidence, as a way of damaging the credibility of the main accusing witness.

It's the same reason the prosecutor will have the victim wear something sedate and girl-next-door whenever possible, or why the accused will invariably appear well-groomed and with professional haircut.

Remember, too, that the essence of rape is a crime not against the victim but against the community/state. It isn't just a matter of proving agreement by the two parties to what happened and why. It's a matter of proving whether the actions rise to an offense against society or not.

That rape will almost never get prosecuted unless the victim testifies doesn't change this fact. The prosecutor is not under oath to protect victims, the prosecutor is protecting the community. One member of a community cannot "consent" on behalf of the community to an action taken against the community.

But that to me isn't the strongest argument against widely defining "implied consent". The question of consent ought to be a matter of fact, not of law. Making it the latter is no more valid than saying "it shouldn't matter whether the victim is a prostitute or a goldigger or Mother Theresa".

If we say the question of consent should be implied, we're taking the question of credibility away from the very people the system sets it up for. The jury (or judge if the jury is waived).

The law doesn't even like to imply consent in contractual matters any more than it has to. It would be profoundly dangerous to do so with respect to crimes of violence.

Do I think people get wrongly accused? Yes. A lot. On this I agree with you. And don't get me started on how people approach sexual harassment.

But the solution is not to imply consent.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
RaiderPride
14 years ago

As the one-time victim of a self-proclaimed "fag" who proceeded to smear my reputation across campus by claiming the encounter was consensual

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



Wha?

You have to explain this. Praytell!
""People Will Probably Never Remember What You Said, And May Never Remember What You Did. However, People Will Always Remember How You Made Them Feel."
Pack93z
14 years ago

I happened to be handcuffed and then freed in your very hometown because I ran a jackass through a wall the couldn't comprehend the word no. Granted he struck her as well.. but for a half hour I thought I was going to pay for his crime... I have seen the other side of an asshole that thought he was entitled to do as he pleased.. UW football player or not.

"RaiderPride" wrote:



That is freaky. The exact thing happened to me in Los Angeles.. I jumped a guy beating a woman on the street, and holding another guy back. I was arrested and thrown in jail.

Unlike you I was convicted. It is the only blemish on my record. The reason I was convicted is because during the fight someone grabbed my from behind and I threw an elbow back. It happened to be a police officer I hit in the throat who arrived at the scene. I did not know it was a police officer. I was charged with assaulting a police officer.

"pack93z" wrote:



Well we beat the police by about 10 minutes.. by that time we had beaten down the door and I happened to get to him first.. he swung and missed and I didn't... he second pass he had a stick, luckily he missed again and at that point I was so enraged that I instinctively grab him by the head and drove it through a drywalled wall and his shoulders caught the studding.. when the police officer arrived he was still lodged in the wall..

The first reaction, because I was bleeding in the hands was that I was handcuffed and was the threat.. when everything settled down and the situation was explained and validated amongst all the witnesses there.. I was uncuffed.. I still had to testify at his hearing and got lectured that I was lucky that he was injured badly.

He followed her home from downtown and forced his way into her apartment.. she called us from the bathroom.. we all knew everyone involved.. Andy called the police as we were on the way once we heard the screaming in the background as she couldn't hang up the phone.. at first we were going to try and calm the situation down.. that was a long night.. September of 1994... the exact date fails me.

The officer apologized for cuffing me.. but I couldn't blame him as I was pretty worked up and pissed.

Anyway.. she had been drinking but I didn't for once doubt her accounts on the phone when she called.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
RaiderPride
14 years ago
Thank God You Were There "Z"
""People Will Probably Never Remember What You Said, And May Never Remember What You Did. However, People Will Always Remember How You Made Them Feel."
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
When I was in Germany, I saw a Turkish man slap his woman in the face right in the train station. I was furious. The only thing that stopped me from lunging for the guy was the realization that I was a foreigner in a land whose policies aren't terribly friendly to foreign troublemakers. So I refrained. But when a few moments later he came up to me to ask for a light, I told him to fuck off. That felt good.
UserPostedImage
GoPack1984
14 years ago
More allegations of inappropriate behavior from Ben. I think this guy is slime. He needs to be suspended for at least 8 games in my opinion.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/04/16/gbi-documents-contain-evidence-of-another-roethlisberger-allegation/ 

GBI documents contain evidence of another Roethlisberger allegation
Posted by Mike Florio on April 16, 2010 9:03 AM ET
The 572 pages of documents released on Thursday by the Georgia Bureau of Investigation likely contain plenty of useless and irrelevant stuff. But, apparently, the materials contain some interesting information that could make things even more difficult for Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger.

Buried in an item in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution regarding the newly-available materials appears reference to an "unsubstantiated allegation" that a "drunken Roethlisberger" made an "unwanted advance" at another Milledgeville-area woman on an unspecified date during a party at Roethlisberger's house in the area.

Per the GBI information, Roethlisberger allegedly pulled down his pants and told the woman she could "do whatever she wants." A week later, he allegedly forced his hand up the same woman's skirt.

The woman was able to get away, and her father advised her not to file a formal criminal complaint. (Her father also may have asked her why in the hell she went back to his house a week after he "showed her who he was.")

If this stuff keeps coming out, Ben is going to get the Pacman treatment. As you may recall, Mr. Jones' one-year suspension was based largely on a string of arrests and police incidents; despite a couple of eventual guilty pleas, he never once spent a night in jail.


blank
Pack93z
14 years ago
Personally I think these clubs better get their heads out of their asses too... sure these Pro Ballers bring in big money and a crowd.. so be it, but then staff the place accordingly so that the patrons are safe in that environments.. not just the knucklehead picking up the tab.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago

(Her father also may have asked her why in the hell she went back to his house a week after he "showed her who he was.")

"GoPack1984" wrote:



This is one of the primary reasons why sexual assault and rape conviction rates are so low. At least 25% of women admit to consensual sex with their alleged rapists after the rape supposedly occurred. These women have no one to blame but themselves when they're met with skepticism in the justice system.

Seriously. If you get sexually assaulted, report it immediately. Don't take a shower first. And for the love of God, don't sleep with the guy afterward.
UserPostedImage
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
Question: Does an NFL quarterback who wins two Super Bowls but is surrounded with a cloud of sexual misconduct allegations make it into the Hall of Fame?
UserPostedImage
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago
I sort of feel for my friends and relatives who are Steeler fans.

We'll always have..."Starr...Dowler...Touchdown!"

They'll always have..."Roethlisberger ... Holmes ...WTF?"
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
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