Zero2Cool
14 years ago
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[img_r]http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/03/30/westboro.baptist.snyder/story.westboro.afp.gi.jpg[/img_r](CNN) -- The father of a Marine whose funeral was picketed by the Westboro Baptist Church says an order to pay the protesters' legal costs in a civil claim is nothing less than a "slap in the face."

"By the court making this decision, they're not only telling me that they're taking their side, but I have to pay them money to do this to more soldiers and their families," said Albert Snyder, whose son, Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder, was killed in action in Iraq in 2006.

Members of the fundamentalist church based in Topeka, Kansas, appeared outside Snyder's funeral in 2006 in Westminster, Maryland, carrying signs reading "You're going to hell," "God hates you" and "Thank God for dead soldiers."

Among the teachings of the church, which was founded in 1955 by pastor Fred Phelps, is the belief that God is punishing the United States for "the sin of homosexuality" through events such as soldiers' deaths.

Margie Phelps, the daughter of Fred Phelps and the attorney representing the church in its appeals, also said the money that the church receives from Snyder will be used to finance demonstrations. But she also said that the order was a consequence of his decision to sue the church over the demonstration.

"Mr. Snyder and his attorneys have engaged the legal system; there are some rules to that legal engagement," said Phelps, a member of Westboro who says she has participated in more than 150 protests of military funerals.

"They wanted to shut down the picketing so now they're going to finance it," she said.

The 4th Circuit Court of Appeals on Friday ordered that Snyder pay more than $16,000 in costs requested by Westboro for copies of motions, briefs and appendices, according to court documents.

In a motion filed in October, Snyder's lawyer, who is representing him for free, asked the court to dismiss the bill of costs, or, alternatively, reduce the 50-cent fee per page or charge Snyder only for copies that were necessary to make their arguments on appeal.

"We objected based upon ability to pay and the fairness of the situation," Sean Summers said.

The mostly pro-forma ruling is the latest chapter in an ongoing legal saga that pits privacy rights of grieving families against the free speech rights of demonstrators, however disturbing and provocative their message.

Snyder's family sued the church and went to trial in 2007 alleging privacy invasion, intentional infliction of emotional distress and civil conspiracy. A jury awarded the family $2.9 million in compensatory damages plus $8 million in punitive damages, which were reduced to $5 million.

Westboro in 2008 appealed the case to the 4th District, which reversed the judgments a year later, siding with the church's claims that its First Amendment rights had been violated.

"The protest was confined to a public area under supervision and regulation of local law enforcement and did not disrupt the church service," the circuit court opinion said. "Although reasonable people may disagree about the appropriateness of the Phelps' protest, this conduct simply does not satisfy the heavy burden required for the tort of intentional infliction of emotional distress under Maryland law."

The U.S. Supreme Court has agreed to hear the case to address issues of laws designed to protect the "sanctity and dignity of memorial and funeral services" as well as the privacy of family and friends of the deceased.

The justices will be asked to address how far states and private entities such as cemeteries and churches can go to justify picket-free zones and the use of "floating buffers" to silence or restrict speech or movements of demonstrators exercising their constitutional rights in a funeral setting.

Both Phelps and Snyder's attorney said they were surprised that the 4th District chose to weigh in on the issue of legal costs when they could have waited until after the Supreme Court hearing.

Phelps believes the ruling bodes well for her side.

"It is a good harbinger of the fact that the Supreme Court will remind this nation that you don't have mob rule. The fact that so many people hate these words does not mean you can silence or penalize them. That's supposed to be the great liberty that we congratulate ourselves on protecting in this nation. We strut all around the world forcing people to give all the liberties we supposedly have," she said.

Phelps anticipated that a Supreme Court ruling in the church's favor would be unpopular, but she said Westboro's members viewed the potential outcome in Biblical terms.

"When the Supreme Court unanimously upholds the 4th Circuit, it's going to put this country in a rage, and we will be expelled," she said. "But whenever it was time for an epic event in the Bible, the thing that happened right before is the prophets were removed from the land, and that's what's going to happen to us. ... We're going to sprint to the end of this race."

http://www.matthewsnyder.org/ . He is equally optimistic that he will prevail before the Supreme Court.

"The American people keep my spirits lifted a lot and give me hope. I think most of the country is on my side on this issue," he said. "Too many people have died to protect our rights and freedoms to have them degraded and spit upon like this church does."




I don't understand this.
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Rockmolder
14 years ago

Westboro in 2008 appealed the case to the 4th District, which reversed the judgments a year later, siding with the church's claims that its First Amendment rights had been violated.



This falls under freedom of speech, press and religion? I'm absolutely amazed that the court overturned this.

That said, the amount of money that's being thrown around with here is, as usual, ridiculous. $2.9 million in compensatory damages plus $5 million in punitive damages.
dfosterf
14 years ago
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During the arrival of a Marine's casket last year at Denver International Airport , Major Steve Beck described the scene. See the people in the windows? They sat right there in the plane, watching those Marines. You have to wonder what's going through their minds, knowing that they're on the plane that brought him home. They will remember being on that plane for the rest of their lives. They're going to remember bringing that Marine home. And they should."


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The night before the burial of her husband's body, Katherine Cathey refused to leave the casket, asking to sleep next to his body for the last time. The Marines made a bed for her, tucking in the sheets below the flag. Before she fell asleep, she opened her laptop computer and played songs that reminded her of her husband, and one of the Marines asked if she wanted them to continue standing watch as she slept. I think it would be kind of nice if you kept doing it., she said. "I think that's what he would have wanted."


The family of the Marine "in question" regarding this lawsuit is from York, Pennsylvania, approximately 30 miles from here.

Some things in this world still deserve some sanctity, respect and decency, imo.
djcubez
14 years ago
I read this on another site a few days ago.

It's downright despicable. Screw the lawsuit, holding signs up that say "Fags Must Die" at a soldiers funeral is nothing any American, let alone any person, should do. Here's a man that paid with his life for your right to hold those signs and what do you do? Completely spit on his grave by holding a "protest" (if you can call it that) at his funeral. I've always been empathetic, kind and respectful of all forms of life, but shit like this makes me question whether some people shouldn't just be eradicated from our world. Sigh.
Cheesey
14 years ago
It's disgusting. These people hide behind "freedom of speach". They are heartless morons, period.
I don't agree with homosexuality, but i would NEVER even THINK of doing something like that. I have friends that are gay, and they know what i believe about what they are doing. But it's no worse then any other type of sin. Like for example: "Judge not, lest ye be judged."
These hypocrites are in for a rude awakening.
If i was that man, i would get the names of any of those "protestors", and in the future, if any of their loved ones died, i would get a group to hold up nasty signs at the loved one's funeral. Then they would know how heartless their own actions were.
WSomeone needs to slap those idiots upside the head.
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4PackGirl
14 years ago
horrible...just horrible.

is there not one bit of tact, respect, & decency left in this world? i think if those people had showed up at my son's funeral to protest, they'd have gone home without some vital body parts.

sickening!!
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
You either believe in the liberties granted to us by the First Amendment, or you don't. You don't get to cherrypick when the protections afforded by the First Amendment apply. If you want the muzzle the right of assholes to picket funerals, you have no ground on which to protest if someone else wants to muzzle your ability to express your own beliefs.

I would far rather put up with the ravings of a few ignorant pricks than risk having my own liberties infringed. And I wear the uniform of the United States armed forces. Some of my buddies have gone home in those same flag-draped coffins.
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Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago
Regrettably, the constitutional issue is likely on the side of the despicable morons in this case, as it often is. The protection pretty clearly is meant to extend to speech most of us consider utterly despicable.

And my guess is that the legal costs came under some sort of statutory penalty for "frivolous" lawsuits. (If you sue, and you should have known that you have no basis for the suit -- and being a despicable moron does not make Phelps a tortfeasor, just a shithead --then you get hung with the other guy's fees.)

It's the old distinction between law and justice. Justice is not what the law is about. The law is for order and predictability and the protection against power. Justice is just an occasional positive externality.

The law is an ass. That's part of its job.

***

All that said, I'm not sure I could have been as restrained when said morons picketed outside one of my relative's funeral. Actually, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been as restrained. I expect I would have found myself in criminal court.

But then again, I'm not a Marine (or from a family of Marines). I don't have the training and fortitude to restrain myself and take that kind of shit from fucking morons.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Formo
14 years ago

UserPostedImage
During the arrival of a Marine's casket last year at Denver International Airport , Major Steve Beck described the scene. See the people in the windows? They sat right there in the plane, watching those Marines. You have to wonder what's going through their minds, knowing that they're on the plane that brought him home. They will remember being on that plane for the rest of their lives. They're going to remember bringing that Marine home. And they should."


UserPostedImage
The night before the burial of her husband's body, Katherine Cathey refused to leave the casket, asking to sleep next to his body for the last time. The Marines made a bed for her, tucking in the sheets below the flag. Before she fell asleep, she opened her laptop computer and played songs that reminded her of her husband, and one of the Marines asked if she wanted them to continue standing watch as she slept. I think it would be kind of nice if you kept doing it., she said. "I think that's what he would have wanted."


The family of the Marine "in question" regarding this lawsuit is from York, Pennsylvania, approximately 30 miles from here.

Some things in this world still deserve some sanctity, respect and decency, imo.

"dfosterf" wrote:



Your post reminds of one of the best movies I've ever seen, Dave. Taking Chance. Synopsis link is here:

http://www.hbo.com/movies/taking-chance/index.html#/movies/taking-chance/synopsis.html 

You either believe in the liberties granted to us by the First Amendment, or you don't. You don't get to cherrypick when the protections afforded by the First Amendment apply. If you want the muzzle the right of assholes to picket funerals, you have no ground on which to protest if someone else wants to muzzle your ability to express your own beliefs.

I would far rather put up with the ravings of a few ignorant pricks than risk having my own liberties infringed. And I wear the uniform of the United States armed forces. Some of my buddies have gone home in those same flag-draped coffins.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



I'm glad you brought up the other side of the issue. Great point. And I partially agree with you.

But, where does the line get drawn? That 'church' does this stuff all the time. They know the laws, and they curtail around legal loopholes all the time. One thing I hate is the legal system (there is no judicial system.. it implies justice being served, and we all know how 'well' that is practiced) is the laws that protect picketers. Yes, they have a right to display all the signs they want. Say what they want. Express their beliefs to the utmost extent. But those laws also require stoppage of traffic if they are at an intersection (even if there's not a single picketer in the crosswalk). Now, I didn't research this law (it may be statewide, I dunno) but I got that information from some picketers, so they could have very well lied.

The best thing to do with those ass clowns is to ignore them. Me personally? I'd picket right next to them with my own messages. I'm sure I could get a bigger group to join me and eventually run those idiots away (I've seen it done before).

Also, I'd like to add that while physical force is a obstruction of ones privacy, it probably would be worth knocking a few teeth loose if I were aggravated enough.
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Thanks to TheViking88 for the sig!!
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
I would respect your right to knock their teeth loose. I would also respect their right to sue your pants off in relaliation. You could take solace in the fact that there's no legal means for an awardee to force the recovery of a civil judgment. So you wouldn't have to pay a cent, and there wouldn't be a damn thing they could do about it, other than ding your credit report for failure to pay.
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