Nonstopdrivel
15 years ago
Our Founders were vehemently opposed to property taxes. The memories of the royal property assessors was still too fresh. It was a philosophical objection: If the government can evict you from your property for failure to pay taxes on it, then you do not in fact own that property. You are merely renting it from the government. Remember that the Declaration of Independence says that all humans have the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," which was a late edit; the original drafts said "life, liberty, and property."

An Iranian professor at my university made this same point to me. She said that Americans have no true freedom, because they have no security in their own homes (a concept with which the Founders also would have agreed). She pointed out that if you fail to pay your taxes one year, you lose your home, something she said is inconceivable in Iran. Even worse, she said, when you die, the government liquidates your property to pay for your Medicare benefit. In Iran, homes are passed on from one generation to the next. The government can't confiscate it at death.

Where there is no right of property, there is no liberty.
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tromadz
15 years ago
This thing has gone to 13 pages? I haven't read a post yet. I'm assuming everything's been mature then. Neat.

(back to drawing funny things about Brett Favre's daughter)
Pack93z
15 years ago
So your real argument is overall breech of the constitution as it was written hundreds of years ago.. yet the founding fathers were bright enough to know that modifications to the document would have to be allowed with growth of the nation.

You just got done talking about the difference of size between America and Netherlands... yet have no bearing on the fact when the constitution was signed we were what 13 colonies in size?

As a nation grows, as the population and infrastructure develops.. the costs associated with rise as well.. thus making revenue streams to support the government need to expand as well..

Goes back to VR's statement of idealistically vs reality.

Point is, the healthcare system has eroded to nothing more than a income class service and leaving the middle class and below behind.. and some thing has to try and reverse that inequality.. we can argue all day long on how to accomplish that.. but one thing is for sure.. those in control of health care and the insurance industry around it aren't going to.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Nonstopdrivel
15 years ago

So your real argument is overall breech of the constitution as it was written hundreds of years ago..

"pack93z" wrote:



Uh, no, my argument is a philosophical one. I didn't mention the constitution once.

yet the founding fathers were bright enough to know that modifications to the document would have to be allowed with growth of the nation.

"pack93z" wrote:



Yes, and they provided a procedure for making such modifications. Most of these programs have been implemented without such modifications.

As a nation grows, as the population and infrastructure develops.. the costs associated with rise as well.. thus making revenue streams to support the government need to expand as well..

"pack93z" wrote:



You're ignoring the fact that the tax base has grown as well. Legitimate functions of government could be funded without recourse to such methods as property taxes because the number of tax payers has also grown. The government spends billions every year on services that don't need to be provided by government. If we stripped down the size of government to its rightful functions, we wouldn't need so many revenue streams.

some thing has to try and reverse that inequality..

"pack93z" wrote:



It is not the role of government to level inequality. It is the role of government to ensure equal opportunity. That is to say, to ensure one cannot by force of arms or physical strength deprive another of his rights or prevent him from enjoying the fruits of whatever potential he has. You're arguing, essentially, "From each according to his ability -- to each according to his need." Which is a direct quote from the Communist Manifesto. 🙂
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Formo
15 years ago
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
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Thanks to TheViking88 for the sig!!
Pack93z
15 years ago



some thing has to try and reverse that inequality..

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



It is not the role of government to level inequality. It is the role of government to ensure equal opportunity. That is to say, to ensure one cannot by force of arms or physical strength deprive another of his rights or prevent him from enjoying the fruits of whatever potential he has. You're arguing, essentially, "From each according to his ability -- to each according to his need." Which is a direct quote from the Communist Manifesto. :)

"pack93z" wrote:



Nice.. chop out the portion that fits your view. ;)

My point, is the healthcare system that exists today does not afford the same opportunity to all of its citizens.. just those that can afford 10 k a year in healthcare or those that get a government paid free ride.

Those stuck in the middle have no recourse but to ignore preventative healthcare and dental work.. or go deep into debt because of it.

I am quite sure the founding fathers would shake a finger at the healthcare system of today.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Pack93z
15 years ago

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.

"Formo" wrote:



This very argument boggles my mind.. the legislation just passed mandates that everyone shall have to purchase health care.. isn't that a step better than today with so many uninsured members of society draining "profits" from healthcare because they don't pay?
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Nonstopdrivel
15 years ago

Nice.. chop out the portion that fits your view. ;)

"pack93z" wrote:



I was hoping you'd call me out on that. 😃
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Pack93z
15 years ago

Nice.. chop out the portion that fits your view. ;)

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



I was hoping you'd call me out on that. :D

"pack93z" wrote:



LOL.. of course I would.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Nonstopdrivel
15 years ago
Hey, gotta check to make you're you're reading. 😉
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