Zero2Cool
14 years ago
Click HERE  to see how it will effect you.
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digsthepack
14 years ago
And if you believe that pack of shit...from a paper that has Obama's unit firmly planted within its mouth....I have got some pristine Florida swamp land to sell you.

Funny thing...these hyper-educated morons have not yet mastered 6th grade math. This thing is going to destroy our economy, and with it, the nation as whole.

For those of you with children, you must be so pleased they they, and their children, will be indentured servants to the state and our Ivy League ruling class.
State Motto: "Wisconsin, our serial murderers eat their kill!"
Dulak
14 years ago
did I read that right when it said by 2014 I will be required to have health insurance? ...

wtfe is that ...

btw the british health care is not so hot here ... very poor service and having to wait forever for the proper treatment is a common place. Ya you can eventually get seen too.
zombieslayer
14 years ago
Dulak - Don't you have socialized dentistry too? I hear British women have the nicest teeth in the 1st world.
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4PackGirl
14 years ago
have you ever BEEN to an ER in the states? took my mom to one when she broke her ankle - we were there 5 HOURS!!!!! tic f'in toc!

NONE of us - not ONE of us - not even the f'in gov't knows how this will effect any given person. the media (dem & rep) needs to stop trying to figure out something that quite frankly is impossible to understand!!

and yes i believe there is a requirement for health insurance by 2014. the hubs pays $75/month with a $5,000 deductible for catastrophic health issues. no biggie.
DakotaT
14 years ago
Why shouldn't a person have to have health insurance? As a potential user of the health care system, you're just paying your dues. I guess if the decision were left to the individiual, he could choose not to have it, but then when he required the use of a health care facility he either ponies up the cash on the spot or doesn't get treated. Refuse to purchase health insurance / get refused for any kind of treatment. No more dead beat bankruptcies in our future. Sounds pretty good.

Anyone ever have a car accident with a person who doesn't have car insurance, now there's a nightmare. Can't bleed a turnip.

As for selling our kids off for slavery, I guess I kind of agree. The debt we have taken on is astounding. But I would sure like to know what it has cost this country to shoot Arabs for the last thirty years as well. If that has all been over oil, why are we paying $2.80 a gallon?

I'm a pretty conservative person. I was brought up Republican, voted it all my life, and should be against this bill with the same kind of zeal as most of my friends and some of you. Bigger government is not a good thing generally. But here's the thing, I can't help to think about how many people this will help. Maybe I'm getting old and soft in the head, but I think there is a moral obligation in helping those less fortunate than you are. I also think there is a side to this medical change that might be a good thing, and that is the regulation of pharmaseutical (sp) companies that are raping us left and right. Also, I like the part about no refusal for prior illnesses. The health care companies shouldn't just get to pick the healthy people to insure.

Sorry for the rant, I feel Dfosterish right now.
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Formo
14 years ago

Why shouldn't a person have to have health insurance? As a potential user of the health care system, you're just paying your dues. I guess if the decision were left to the individiual, he could choose not to have it, but then when he required the use of a health care facility he either ponies up the cash on the spot or doesn't get treated. Refuse to purchase health insurance / get refused for any kind of treatment. No more dead beat bankruptcies in our future. Sounds pretty good.

Anyone ever have a car accident with a person who doesn't have car insurance, now there's a nightmare. Can't bleed a turnip.

As for selling our kids off for slavery, I guess I kind of agree. The debt we have taken on is astounding. But I would sure like to know what it has cost this country to shoot Arabs for the last thirty years as well. If that has all been over oil, why are we paying $2.80 a gallon?

I'm a pretty conservative person. I was brought up Republican, voted it all my life, and should be against this bill with the same kind of zeal as most of my friends and some of you. Bigger government is not a good thing generally. But here's the thing, I can't help to think about how many people this will help. Maybe I'm getting old and soft in the head, but I think there is a moral obligation in helping those less fortunate than you are. I also think there is a side to this medical change that might be a good thing, and that is the regulation of pharmaseutical (sp) companies that are raping us left and right. Also, I like the part about no refusal for prior illnesses. The health care companies shouldn't just get to pick the healthy people to insure.

Sorry for the rant, I feel Dfosterish right now.

"DakotaT" wrote:



Growing up in WI, and when I first got my car, I didn't have insurance on it (wasn't a legal requirement like in MN). I had 'better' things to use my money on (booze, chicas, and the likes). I rear ended an older fellow. Was a nice gent, wasn't all my fault, as the person in front of him slammed on their brakes because the person in front of them decided about 5 seconds too late to make a left turn (we all were in the left lane). I hit my brakes as soon as the guy in front of me did, but since my tires were poor, I burnt rubber and hit him. Was a nice guy.. We looked at his truck (had a brand new Ranger) and I told him I'd pay to get it fixed (I didn't have the money). He didn't ask about my insurance, and I didn't tell! But, I did what I promised. I payed.

I don't know what that has to do with the medical crap.. Your comment on auto insurance sparked that memory.

Anyway, I'm violently against Obama-care. I always felt the REAL solution to our health care woes was to get everyone on an HSA plan. Forces people to think for themselves because they are essentially paying with their own money (with the help of an employer and the money being 100% tax-free). You'll no longer get these hypochondriacs(sp) that get a cold/fever/flu run to their doctor to get a prescription. You wonder why our insurance companies gouge the shit out of us?? Because the health care/pharmaceutical industries gouge the shit out of the insurance companies. And guess what? We pay for it!

At least with an HSA plan, we decide how much we pay for our care.
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zombieslayer
14 years ago
I'm violently against one aspect of Obama-care - forcing people who don't have health care to pay for it or face fines. That's bullshit.

There's a way out if your religion says that it's against your religion. I'd love to see some phony religions start in 2013 and get millions of members. Now, that would be cool.
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Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago

Why shouldn't a person have to have health insurance?

"DakotaT" wrote:



Because maybe they don't want it? Because maybe they have other, legitimate financial priorities? The insurance my university sells would cost me $900 per month and hardly cover anything. It doesn't cover injuries sustained in auto accidents, sporting events, or anything that happens on a commercial flight, for example. So why would I waste money on insurance that doesn't cover some of the most common causes of health problems in people my age? Most importantly, because it's not the government's prerogative to force me to buy a private product. For all President Obama's rhetoric against the fat cats, he's just handed them a blank check bigger than their wildest dreams. It's no coincidence that health-insurance stocks have skyrocketed in recent months.

I'm just as opposed to the government forcing people to purchase auto insurance. Should people be financially responsible for problems they cause in auto accidents? Yes. Should people have to pay for their healthcare? Yes. Should they have the option how they wish to make that payment? Absolutely! In fact, one of the surest ways we could reduce healthcare costs in this country would be to eliminate comprehensive health insurance plans and carry only catastrophic insurance. The inevitable side effect of paying for something with OPM (other people's money) is to artificially inflate demand. Easy mortgages drove up home prices; comprehensive insurance drives up healthcare costs.

Refuse to purchase health insurance / get refused for any kind of treatment.

"DakotaT" wrote:



Indeed! As a healthcare worker, I think it's absurd that Congress has mandated that emergency rooms must treat anyone and everyone, regardless of the complaint.

No more dead beat bankruptcies in our future.

"DakotaT" wrote:



While this does happen, it's not entirely a fair characterization. About 51% of bankruptcies these days are due to healthcare costs. The majority of these people had health insurance when the catastrophe struck. But they either a) ran through their lifetime maximum or b) the insurance company canceled their policy when they ceased to be a good risk.

And that leads to my next point:

I can't help to think about how many people this will help.

"DakotaT" wrote:



It may help people in the short term. In the long run, however, it's going to hurt a lot more people than it will help.

The whole thrust behind this healthcare plan is to reduce the costs of healthcare. In the end, that is inevitably going to result in some sort of mandated price controls. If the government forces insurance companies to hold the line on prices, they will resort to the only option they have: cutting payouts to healthcare providers. Remember, health insurance companies already pay out more in benefits than they take in in premiums. The only reason they stay financially solvent is because of the "float" -- the return on their investments.

But you can't force people to lose money. You just can't. If they have cut costs as low as they can go, providers will simply cut services. And that has already begun to happen. Mayo Clinic has announced that after losing over $800 million on Medicare patients last year, they will no longer be accepting Medicare patients at their Arizona location, and they're considering the possibility of refusing to accept them at any location. More and more physicians and hospitals are refusing to take new Medicare patients. Eventually, the same problem will occur with government-mandated health insurance. Already, healthcare providers pick and choose which insurance companies they are willing to accept. That won't change under Obama's plan. In fact, the number of plans providers refuse to accept will probably increase.

I imagine if this becomes a significant problem, Congress will pass a law mandating that healthcare providers accept all insurance plans. In this case, providers will simply refer patients for fewer tests and procedures (not necessarily a bad thing), and if that isn't enough, cut or eliminate services. We will see clinics and hospitals going out of business. This is hardly wild-eyed hysteria. A quick web search will reveal hundreds of articles -- some dating back to the 1980s -- describing the financial pressures hospitals have been under since the lowering of Medicare payout rates. Dozens of hospitals nationwide have gone bankrupt and closed their doors. Imagine what will happen when virtually all insurance companies are paying out at Medicare rates, which is the ultimate goal of this plan from what I've heard.

The health care companies shouldn't just get to pick the healthy people to insure.

"DakotaT" wrote:



And why not? You act as though insurance companies can ignore sound financial principles. The fact is, insurance companies never lose, because if they do, they go out of business; the statistical line they tread is that razor thin. Insurance companies base their every decision around the Expected Value Equation. They weigh their carefully calculated risk in paying out against the premiums they take in (and the "float"), and they put their clients in a "negative expected value." In other words, all things being equal, if you pay into an insurance company, over the course of your lifetime you as the client will always lose money. It must be this way. The insurance company cannot lose this gamble (for that is what it is), or it ceases to exist. If insurance companies are forced to insure pre-existing conditions, that drastically increases their risk of paying out, which means one of only two possibilities: a) they charge much higher premiums on the individuals with pre-existing conditions; or b) they raise premiums on everyone else to compensate for the increased risk, which is the route hospitals and clinics have taken since Medicare payouts were decreased. It must be this way. An insurance company that ignored the principles of Expected Value would be like a poker player who consistently makes bets with negative expected value: it would quickly go bust.

You can't force people to lose money. They'll simply close up shop and move elsewhere.

By the way, efforts are underway in Germany to mandate that all citizens buy private insurance to supplement their government-provided insurance, since Germany simply can no longer afford to keep the system viable at current benefits rates. All foreign students are already required to produce proof of private health insurance. If a nation of 80 million with a robust industrial base can't make it work financially, what makes us think a country of 300 million will be able to do so?

I'm a pretty conservative person. I was brought up Republican, voted it all my life,

"DakotaT" wrote:



Being and voting Republican doesn't make you conservative. Government has expanded under Republican rule as fast as, or sometimes faster than, under Democratic rule. :P

I think there is a moral obligation in helping those less fortunate than you are.

"DakotaT" wrote:



There certainly is. But it's a private obligation. The government has no business intruding into it. I'm a firm believer in universal healthcare -- just not government-mandated universal healthcare. My dream is to fly medical missions into Third-World countries. I've historically given over 10% of my income to charitable medical organizations. The resources to care for the poor and needy are out there, if people would only support them. But if they choose not to do so, who are we to tell them they must?

In the words of Robert Heinlein: "There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him."

Or as Thomas Jefferson in a slightly different context said: "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical."
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Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago

REVIEW & OUTLOOK | JANUARY 8, 2010
Medicare and the Mayo Clinic 
The famous hospital will no longer take some senior patients.

President Obama last year praised the Mayo Clinic as a "classic example" of how a health-care provider can offer "better outcomes" at lower cost. Then what should Americans think about the famous Minnesota medical center's decision to take fewer Medicare patients?

Specifically, Mayo said last week it will no longer accept Medicare patients at one of its primary care clinics in Arizona. Mayo said the decision is part of a two-year pilot program to determine if it should also drop Medicare patients at other facilities in Arizona, Florida and Minnesota, which serve more than 500,000 seniors.

Mayo says it lost $840 million last year treating Medicare patients, the result of the program's low reimbursement rates. Its hospital and four clinics in Arizonaincluding the Glendale facilitylost $120 million. Providers like Mayo swallow some of these Medicare losses, while also shifting the cost by charging more to private patients and insurers.

Of course, only governments can lose that much money and pretend they don't have to change. "Mayo Clinic loses a substantial amount of money every year due to the reimbursement schedule under Medicare," the institution said. "Decades of underfunding and paying for volume rather than value in Medicare have led us to this decision."

Mayo is probably a leading indicator of where other hospitals and doctors are headed. Physicians on average earn 20% to 30% less from Medicare than they do from private patients, and many are dropping out of the program. While about 92% of family physicians participate in Medicare, only about 73% of those are now accepting new patients. In some specialtiesneurology, oncology, gynecologyin places like Manhattan and Washington, patients can struggle to find any doctor who'll accept Medicare.

The $500 billion in Medicare cuts planned as part of ObamaCare won't help this trend. The hospital industry agreed earlier this year to chip in $100 billion over the next decade in lower annual payment increases for Medicare. The chief Medicare actuary estimates that up to 20% of hospitals could become unprofitable as a result of the scheme.

The irony is that the Obama Administration has repeatedly praised Mayo as an example of the efficiency and lower cost that will spread everywhere if ObamaCare passes. And it's true that Mayo is a sterling example of the kind of health reform that many economistsnotably White House budget chief Peter Orszagextol.

Mayo's doctors are salaried and work in teams, which have become known more broadly as accountable care organizations, or ACOs. Mayo would prefer to receive a bundled payment for an episode of illness, rather than the Medicare practice of reimbursing for individual procedures. As it is now under Medicare, Mayo's less-is-more model means it can't make up its true costs on volume.

We have our differences with this ACO model. It essentially converts health-care providers into the equivalent of managed care in the 1990s. While HMOs did lead to less health spending for a time, patients and doctors rebelled. Congress threatened to intervene with a "patients bill of rights" until insurers backed off. The promoters of ACOs are saying that managed care will work better this time because the providers will be reducing costs at the behest of government, instead of insurance companies.

That may work for Mayo, which has spent decades building an institutional culture by trial and error. But it takes a special kind of hubris to believe that government can replicate such a culture nationwide. The ACO model still hides the cost of care from individuals, who thus have no incentive to reduce their utilization. Mayo also serves a more affluent population than most hospitals, which may make cost-saving easier.

The double irony is that earlier this year Mayo itself came out against the House health bill as offering too little cost-saving reform. And, six months later, the truth is that neither bill in Congress includes the kind of cost-saving innovations that would lead to more Mayos. Instead, the highly touted insurance "exchanges" will essentially import Medicare's rules. Mr. Orszag and the Obama whiz kids have settled for "pilot programs" and cost-saving quarter measures because Congress doesn't want to give up political control over government health payments.

In other words, the real Mayo story is that sclerotic Medicare is preventing more Mayos, and ObamaCare is paving the way for all of health care to operate like Medicare.


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