zombieslayer
15 years ago
I didn't want to hijack Porforis' thread so I started a new one.

We really need a National Sales Tax. Seriously, screw the IRS. It shouldn't exist. NOBODY except for you and your employer (and your Mom) should know how much money you make and what you spend it on. It's a privacy issue mostly.

Also though, besides just privacy, things like what happened to Porforis shouldn't happen. I feel really bad. He's now in paperwork hell. I've heard others go through similar experiences. I had a correction once and it cost me $200. Not a large amount of money but it's out of general principle. A waste of time and money.

So instead of the IRS, what do you all think of a National Sales Tax? It's a consumption tax. I've heard folks say it hurts the poor but food is exempt. Also, the more money you make, the more you end up spending anyways. No system is fair. Heck, I could go on and on about how unfair our current system is, how it screws over Californians and New Yorkers and rewards people in more inexpensive states.

So much time would be saved. So much less hassle. So much more privacy. Imagine the paperwork saved.

Discuss.
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Pack93z
15 years ago
It is gaining momentum ... Washington Post article about talks on the hill ..

I think the hidden benefit of it all.. is that it will encourage people to save more.. thus creating less of the "dangerous" spender that live beyond their mean.

Of course those in government would find a way to offset the benefits with some type of spending.

A VAT's Bottom Line

What would it cost? Emanuel argues in his book that a 10 percent VAT would pay for every American not entitled to Medicare or Medicaid to enroll in a health plan with no deductibles and minimal copayments. In his 2008 book, "100 Million Unnecessary Returns," Yale law professor Michael J. Graetz estimates that a VAT of 10 to 14 percent would raise enough money to exempt families earning less than $100,000 -- about 90 percent of households -- from the income tax and would lower rates for everyone else.

And in a paper published last month in the Virginia Tax Review, Burman suggests that a 25 percent VAT could do it all: Pay for health-care reform, balance the federal budget and exempt millions of families from the income tax while slashing the top rate to 25 percent. A gallon of milk would jump from $3.69 to $4.61, and a $5,000 bathroom renovation would suddenly cost $6,250, but the nation's debt would stabilize and everybody could see a doctor.


"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Nonstopdrivel
15 years ago
Yeah, but is that a VAT in lieu of all the other taxes we're paying or a VAT on top of them?
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Porforis
15 years ago
But... But... What about all these rich bankers/insurance company CEOs/Oil tycoons that everyone loves to bash that don't spend that much of their money on taxable goods?

Seriously though, would there still be capital gains taxes? A flat sales tax would be simpler, but I just don't see it happening.
Porforis
15 years ago

It is gaining momentum ... Washington Post article about talks on the hill ..

I think the hidden benefit of it all.. is that it will encourage people to save more.. thus creating less of the "dangerous" spender that live beyond their mean.

Of course those in government would find a way to offset the benefits with some type of spending.

A VAT's Bottom Line

What would it cost? Emanuel argues in his book that a 10 percent VAT would pay for every American not entitled to Medicare or Medicaid to enroll in a health plan with no deductibles and minimal copayments. In his 2008 book, "100 Million Unnecessary Returns," Yale law professor Michael J. Graetz estimates that a VAT of 10 to 14 percent would raise enough money to exempt families earning less than $100,000 -- about 90 percent of households -- from the income tax and would lower rates for everyone else.

And in a paper published last month in the Virginia Tax Review, Burman suggests that a 25 percent VAT could do it all: Pay for health-care reform, balance the federal budget and exempt millions of families from the income tax while slashing the top rate to 25 percent. A gallon of milk would jump from $3.69 to $4.61, and a $5,000 bathroom renovation would suddenly cost $6,250, but the nation's debt would stabilize and everybody could see a doctor.

"pack93z" wrote:



Ugh... The last person in the world I'd trust is Rahm Emanuel or his brother... What a snake. Also, there's a difference between health coverage and health care - just because the government is paying for health insurance doesn't mean you'll be able to see a doctor, now, and with good quality care. This is why simply having the government take over the health care industry isn't going to fix things. I like the basic premise of having a flat sales tax, but I simply don't trust the government to implement it in a way that is efficient or fair.
Formo
15 years ago
Fair tax. I like your thinking, ZS.

You say people claim it wouldn't be fair to the poor. Uhh. A) Life's not fair and 😎 it IS fair. They pay taxes based on how much they spend. Because they are poor, they don't spend much. Because they don't spend much, they don't pay as much.

On the flip side, you have the millionare types. They are going to buy houses, cars, etc. Guess what? They will pay the same % as everyone else, but they'll still be paying more in. They like it because it's fair. We like it because they are still 'funding' the system.

I don't see any downfall to a Fair Tax-type system, except it takes money away from our politicians pockets. Thus, why we'll never see something like it.
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TheEngineer
15 years ago
We recently (2000) had the introduction of a VAT tax, known as Goods and Services Tax in Australia, on top of normal income tax and other statutory taxes such as Medicare, CGT, fringe benefits etc.

I really do not think it would work on its own. Some sort of income tax is typically essential as they are progressive taxes which have the effect of taxing rich people more. A flat tax such as VAT tends to work regressively, since people with high income are taxed less for any given item. They definitely earn more but that does not mean they definitely spend more.

Secondly, with any taxation, regulatory and enforcement bodies are required to ensure the correct monitoring and enforcement of taxation. Yes, there are a lot of costs associated with that, and many hours wasted. The IRS would still be required for monitoring company taxation, anyway.

Additionally, consumption is, if I recall correctly, an important statistical figure for economics, and introducing something that will retard spending isn't something to be taken lightly.

Yes, the whole tax system is overly complicated and a massive burden on an individual. I just hope eventually we do away with needlessly complex taxation laws and move towards streamlining the measurement and payment of tax.
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Nonstopdrivel
15 years ago
The U.S. Constitution mandates an amazingly streamlined form of taxation -- apportionment by state -- but we've gone and royally screwed it up.

Unfortunately, I'm packing for a weeklong drill -- blah -- so I don't have time to write a treatise on this topic. I definitely want to, though.
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Formo
15 years ago

The U.S. Constitution mandates an amazingly streamlined form of taxation -- apportionment by state -- but we've gone and royally screwed it up.

Unfortunately, I'm packing for a weeklong drill -- blah -- so I don't have time to write a treatise on this topic. I definitely want to, though.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



Damnit. Have fun. I want to see a 2 page report on this topic when you return.
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Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
15 years ago
Two questions:

1. We trust the "guvmint" to administer a sales tax more than we trust it to administer an "income tax" because...?

2. A sales tax will encourage government responsibility how?

I have no trouble with abolishing the IRS. Or the income tax. Or both.

But I fail to see how giving to more taxing ability who have shown they have zero financial responsibility makes any sense at all.

I might be bankrupt. But I'm supposed to trust Charles Ponzi to get me out of bankruptcy.

Taxes do not solve problems. Taxes merely shift who pays for them.
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