warhawk
15 years ago

My point here is simple.. in Porky's realistic senario above, we would be playing him 7 mil/yr on the chance that he still has it..

He was always a one dimensional player that depended more on speed than anything.. can he regain that?

IMO, it isn't the type of gamble you invest 7mil/yr on.

Again.. if he would accept a humble contract up front to prove that he can recapture the flame.. so be it.. if not, let the Skin's of the world sink their money in.

IMO, that isn't the cure for the Cards issue.. experienced smart play in the secondary is... they packaged a game plan to exploit the Packers physical play.. which forced Capers to adjust.

Making those adjustments with young fresh faced to the defense defenders caused enough confusion the Warner had receivers open all over the place. The types of holes that for the majority of plays that made pressure almost impossible to apply.

There was a pattern set all season with this defense... unless they could be physical with the receivers they struggled to cover well..

Want an honest opinion.. until we couple two safeties in the secondary that play intelligent ball... we will continue that trend. IMO, we don't have the answer at safety on this club.. and IMO, that is just as important as any Merriman type addition to this defense.

That and growth from some of the young corners or sprinkle in veteran players that can play in space.

"pack93z" wrote:



I think the cure for the secondary is a consistant pass rush. Every game we lost there was no pressure on the QB. We had a good number of INT's as well, but, we didn't get them in the games we lost when we weren't getting pressure.

I say geting the personnel that will get the pressure on the QB every time they take the field is priority because that will add the benefit of more turnovers and sacks ruin drives as well.

How many times did our DB's have bad games when the QB is on his back or running for his life? It's a QB nightmare when the rush is affective but the 3-4 can be a QB's dream if he's allowed to stand back there and wait for receivers to get open.

Favre, Favre again, Big Ben, Kurt, all hurt us because we didn't get to them. They only need a half a yard window to drill it into if nobody is in there face or making them run. It's a double whammy when you don't get pressure and your playing a good QB. Forget it. That's what happened five or six times this year and IMO we could have two ALL PRO safeties out there and if we don't get good pressure against good QB's we're going to lose.

If you look at the really good 3-4 teams there is a huge difference in the production of their LOLB & the pressure the ILB'rs bring when they send them. They win at the LOS right away and raise havok in the backfield most often before the QB can even get set.

We have GOT to get that first. Then we can tweak other things.
"The train is leaving the station."
ILikeThePackers39
15 years ago

I don't disagree with pack93's thoughts on what the Packers need.

However, I think it's much easier to find the 3rd or 4th corner and a SS safety via the first three rounds of the draft than it is a pass rusher. I'm aware of the success Matthews has had, but the market is slim to none at corner, offensive tackle, and safety. If you're going to make a run at a player, then pass rusher makes the most sense when you look at whats out there.

Plus, pass rush is the key to Dom Capers' scheme. Always has been and always will be. If GB can't get a consistent pass rush, then the defense will be just as vulnerable to the pass as it is now, even if they lined up the best secondary in football. I think Shawn Merrimen upgrades this defense a heck of a lot more than Tyrone Carter does. Doesn't mean I wouldn't go for a Carter like SS this off-season (I'd go for both), but I think you do as much as possible to get a deal done as long as it's reasonable. To get a pass rusher, you're going to have to pay.

The days where you can bring a Sean Jones in for a decent deal are gone. The market is different now. To get talent, you have to pay. 7M a year for Merrimen is fairly conservative actually. A 2nd round pick is pretty fair. You pair Merrimen and Matthews, with the Packers' defensive line, and offenses will have trouble matching up with that.

"porky88" wrote:




I don't know that I love either Carter or Clark once they're out of the Steelers' scheme, but Clark is probably an upgrade over Bigby. One thing that's clear is that that Pittsburgh has achieved on defense by concentrating on pass rush. They've rarely had much on the corners, and aside from Polamalu their safeties have been solid, at best. When they've performed the best they've had good pass rush with the front seven and Polamalu has been healthy and playing well. The Packers are obviously not the Steelers, but if one looks at Collins as our good-to-great safety, it would seem that you look to upgrade at Bigby's spot and find someone to help Matthews and the D-line at getting to the quarterback quickly. With Woodson, Williams, and Harris (in whatever order works best) coming back as veterans and Lee and Underwood set to develop, I don't think corner is a huge need position - I wouldn't shy away from one in the draft if he's BPA, but I wouldn't spend FA money on one or draft one very high.

I think that Clark is about the only guy potentially out there who could give us a lift alongside Collins. I certainly wouldn't mind it if they brought him in - otherwise they should look to add depth and hope to find a gem in the draft. Merriman has negatives and question marks, for sure. Woodson did, as well, but he eventually realized that Green Bay offered him an opportunity to rebuild his image as a player and a person. Merriman, if he cares, might see the same opportunity and want a new start. Otherwise there certainly look to be some potential answers in the draft.

Clark or Merriman (or even both, if we're going to get crazy) would be great. I think we're in worse shape at safety than OLB, assuming they do keep Kampy around. If not, then you're looking at another defense-heavy draft, I'm afraid - and that won't help the o-line.
blank
Rockmolder
15 years ago

forget him - we need a solid KR/PR guy ... another solid corner, figure out whom will play safety if one of ours goes down ... and a Dline man in the works ... oh and most of all need to figure out our Oline ...

no more 50+ sack season

"Dulak" wrote:



I'd rate our need for a DE/OLB as high as that for an OT.

We don't have a pure rusher at that position. Our FO thought we had one in Kampman, but I still don't think that he'll be any good this year. Matthews is a great off-set OLB. A player who could play OLB in a 4-3, as well. We need a guy that would play DE in a 4-3. Brandon Graham, for instance.

Maybe Thompson will still become that guy, but I doubt that.

I've been lobbying for Merriman for a while now. I think that he'd be the perfect addition to this team. I don't think that he's done. He had a horrible injury and had a down year after that. If anything, that should work in our favor as his trade value should be down.

Just think of how much better a defense instantly becomes when they can get pressure with just 4 people. It's the difference between the 2008 and the 2007 Packers. The 2007 Giants and the 2009 Giants. With our D-line and Shawne Merriman's rushing skills, we shouldn't have to blitz all that often. And if we do, think how deadly our rush will be with Matthews and Merriman coming off the edges, while Jenkins, Pickett and Jolly play the D-line.

That'd be absolutely amazing.

I wouldn't mind a guy like Brandon Graham, either, though, but if you can get this guy for a 3rd and 4th, or a 2nd if we have to, I'd be all for it.

"Rockmolder" wrote:



Rock how come you are mentioning a 4-3 when obviously we are running a 3-4 for x years ... and why do we need another OLB when we are probably going to dish out huge $ for kampman again (and ya I agree I'd rather skip on kampman and take someone better suited) - kampman better as a DE IMO then a OLB.

And then we just had our rookie ROLB get nominated to the pro bowl - #1 for his sack amount ie a guy that rushes the passer.

Now not saying merriman isnt any good - but we are stacked with ILB ie barnett/hawk/chillar/bishop it appears we are keeping all of them in rotation.

IMO our weakest link was doms playcalling when it came to rushing the passer, and then our coverage of our DBs.

On offense it doesnt take much to see we had too many sacks this year. No complaints about anything our other players did; first 1/2 of the year grant blew but it appeared Mike McCarthy worked on some plays and things got a little better (still rather have a different back thou). But whatever ...

"Dulak" wrote:



The 4-3 reference was because I believe that you want someone who would resemble an agile and fast DE in your scheme, coupled with someone who would play OLB in the 4-3, but is pretty good at rushing the passer.

Matthews is that OLB guy. Dumervil and Merriman are those DE guys.

The comparisons to the 2007, 2008 Packers and 2007, 2009 Giants where just to prove my point. It's all about rushing the passer with just 4 guys. Both those teams had great seasons when they had a good pass rush with just 4 guys and where both pretty bad when that went away. Even though they largely had the same guys in the secondary.
coltonja
15 years ago
I can't remember who said Barnett would MAYBE not like Merriman here or maybe it was would want him here lol(too tired and lazy to go back and look). Anyway here's Barnett's take:

Source. 

Here is a fun late-January Twitter conversation between Green Bay linebacker Nick Barnett (@nickbarnett), ESPNs Trey Wingo (@wingoz) and Green Bay tailback Ryan Grant (@RyanGrant25):

Barnett: What you guys think @shawnemerriman in the green and gold????
Wingo: @NickBarnett more to the poit [sic] nick, what do YOU think?
Grant: @wingoz I think that's a great idea
Barnett: @wingoz I think he is a great player but honestly. I would like to see us get Kampman back. One free agent I would like to see Dwan Edwards
Barnett: @wingoz but don't get me wrong if we don't get kamp back would love to have him... But he would have to change his number lol
UserPostedImage
Thanks to pack93z for the sig!!!
Pack93z
15 years ago

*Snip*

"warhawk" wrote:



I think the cure for the secondary is a consistant pass rush. Every game we lost there was no pressure on the QB. We had a good number of INT's as well, but, we didn't get them in the games we lost when we weren't getting pressure.

I say geting the personnel that will get the pressure on the QB every time they take the field is priority because that will add the benefit of more turnovers and sacks ruin drives as well.

How many times did our DB's have bad games when the QB is on his back or running for his life? It's a QB nightmare when the rush is affective but the 3-4 can be a QB's dream if he's allowed to stand back there and wait for receivers to get open.

Favre, Favre again, Big Ben, Kurt, all hurt us because we didn't get to them. They only need a half a yard window to drill it into if nobody is in there face or making them run. It's a double whammy when you don't get pressure and your playing a good QB. Forget it. That's what happened five or six times this year and IMO we could have two ALL PRO safeties out there and if we don't get good pressure against good QB's we're going to lose.

If you look at the really good 3-4 teams there is a huge difference in the production of their LOLB & the pressure the ILB'rs bring when they send them. They win at the LOS right away and raise havok in the backfield most often before the QB can even get set.

We have GOT to get that first. Then we can tweak other things.

"pack93z" wrote:



I don't disagree with your and Porky's opinion that we need a consistent pass rush.. but I don't think that would have solved the Cards game issue..

Warner had guys open in the first three beats.. consistently.. sure he held the ball here and there looking for more, but the back receiver on the stacks were open almost every snap by the time Warner was finishing his drop.. it would have been a pass rush for the ages to shut that down.

I think the two games against MN this year.. hell yes I would lay more of the issue at the pressure aspect than scheme from the opposition.. we are just lucky their coaching staff isn't creative.. ;)

Again.. not saying a better pass rush wouldn't solve some issues.. but it isn't just another OLB that needs improvement there if you really want this 3-4 to become dynamic.. the ILB need to learn how to rush the passer as well to truly open up the pressure scheme.. the only effect pressure we got out of the interior backers was on the twist.. other than that.. they had very little consistent effect on the QB.

I would have no problem acquiring another pass rusher if the right deal presented itself.. but a 2nd and 7mil/yr for a guy that 'might' have it left after injury isn't something I would be pawing over.

Not to mention... is the guys head and effort in the game truly? IMO.. he coasted way to much in the Chargers games I saw.. maybe that is lingering effects from the knee... or maybe it is just the guy isn't 100% interested in being the best he can be on the field.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
dfosterf
15 years ago
Color Kampy gone, imo. I'm not getting into the rest of the discussion, but I just want that aspect better understood. I would give it far less than 50/50.

The franchise number is 9.68 million, and that is for a linebacker, not a 4-3 defensive end, which is yet another reflection of the relative value at the two positions, when you consider that the DE number is over 12 mil.

The market is incredibly thin for a 4-3 DE free agent. Why in the world would Kampy want to accept a lesser contract to play a position that doesn't showcase his skills in comparison to the position that he is a proven asset?

I love Kampy, but I don't see how he is retained. I would lean towards a characterization of his continued service in Green Bay as, "No way."

I would not begrudge him for moving on to greener pastures, and by the same token, I don't think he is worth anywhere near the kind of number it could reasonably be expected to take to keep him as on OLB for the Pack.
Pack93z
15 years ago
I completely agree the Kampman is gone.. hence why I argued that it made a ton of sense to move him at the deadline last season.

Now.. we have little in terms of options in getting anything in return out of Kampman than the tag him and deal him.. which will be even a lesser value than what we could have gotten last season.

Combine that with the injury.... it makes little sense to retain him from a pure on the field perception.. although his leadership and drive still makes him valuable.. just doesn't fit here with the 3-4 IMO.

IMO, the fair thing to do is let Kampman walk and choose his own next step in his football career.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
bozz_2006
15 years ago
He'll get paid. That's what is fair. If you can get something for his service, anything, you gotta do it.
UserPostedImage
shield4life
15 years ago
Trade our 3rd rounder + Kamp for a first round pick and grab 2 key players.

#1 O-Line
#2 CB or Pass Rusher for the 3-4

IMO I think we need another dangerous pass rusher.
Glad To Be A Packers Fan.
Rockmolder
15 years ago

Trade our 3rd rounder + Kamp for a first round pick and grab 2 key players.

#1 O-Line
#2 CB or Pass Rusher for the 3-4

IMO I think we need another dangerous pass rusher.

"shield4life" wrote:



I have to admit that I'd like a Brandon Graham more than Merriman right now, but who would you have in mind for that trade?

It has to be a team that's ready to make the big push. Maybe the Texans or the Falcons would be an interesting team to trade with. Both 4-3 teams, both on the edge of going to the play-offs and both lack a good LE opposite of a good RE.

The real question is, will anyone give up a 1st for a 3rd and a 30 year old DE who's coming off of knee surgery.
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