Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
15 years ago

I've got the answer, why don't all the orgnized churches get together, each raiding some of the coffers of wealth they've looted off the ordinary cretins of the world over the last 10 centuries and make an incredible monetary donation?

The IRS has just ok'd a deduction for Haitian relief if one is inclined to itemize. So instead of helping your country out of financial hell, you can elect to help these earthquake victims who are facing a more dire and immediate threat.

"DakotaT" wrote:



Gee, and here I thought my last long-winded post was a tangent. Thanks, Dakota. No yellow snow for you this week, after all. 🙂
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Gravedigga
15 years ago

It's not the business of the world to make that happen; it's the business of the people to make that happen. If they wanted it badly enough, they would have made it happen long ago. Whether we can believe it or not from our vantage point, something about the way things are done in that country suits the people.

"Wade" wrote:



Well, that leads to an interesting question: whyever would such a way of doing things suit the people?

And, for the life of me, and though this is going to make me sound horribly Amerocentric and politically incorrect, even for me, I can only think of two possible answers:

1. They're stupid.
2. They're ignorant.

Call me a bigot, but there is such a thing as a "superior" cultural paradigm. And, it seems to me, a culture that yields per capita real purchasing power which is between 100 and 10,000 times greater, nutrition that is substantially higher, and life expectancy on the order of half again as long, is in fact culturally superior to one that does not.

Now, as to #1, I refuse to accept it. That Haitians have done stupid things, I expect. But more than people in general do stupid things. I think not.

Which, then, leaves #2. And, alas, that could be the case.

And, if it is ignorance operating, then, yes, it should be the business of those who are more enlightened and affluent. Part of the reason a profoundly richer culture whose people live longer is superior to one that is not is that it enables that culture to do things that it otherwise could not. Like find ways to make the lot of those less fortunate better.

An ignorant person cannot always "bootstrap" his way out of ignorance, because he cannot always see his ignorance and his lack without help.

This point was driven home to me several years ago when I was a teaching assistant for a professor teaching one of those large lectures in "Western Civilization." As is often the case, the class collectively underperformed on the first exam. You all have heard of this kind of performance: unable to place Germany on the correct continent, failing to get the date of the French revolution within 150 years, etc etc.

After finding out from us TAs just how poorly the performance was, professor's next lecture did postmortem on the exam. And among his remarks was his assertion that the students were rather profoundly ignorant. He went on at a bit of length, explaining why he was *not* calling them stupid, why the consequences of such ignorance were something to try to avoid at all costs, etc. (This, by the way, was the same professor who first introduced to me one of the great essays on why the quality of writing matters, George Orwell's "Politics and the English Language.")

It was one of the most eloquent lectures-within-a-lecture that I've ever heard.

And guess what, it profoundly failed with an awful lot of the ignoramuses (ignorami?) in the room. I know because I had to spend most of the next discussion period trying to deal with student anger and "offense" at being inappropriately called "stupid." I know because, despite his efforts and my own, he got *crucified* two months later in his student evaluations, student after student whining about how he had called them "stupid."

I've spent a lot of time over the years thinking and talking about that lecture on "ignorance" and its aftermath. Because the complaints were too widespread to place on the fraction of the class that might be counted as actually "stupid."

And eventually I remembered something the professor told me when I asked him about it afterward. After joking about how he had the protections of tenure, he got serious and started talking about his moral responsibility as someone who had personally passed that particular barrier of ignorance. I don't remember the exact words, but he said something like this:

Wade, all of us are ignorant about some things. It's part of the nature of being human. What we don't know far surpasses what we don't know; and what we don't know we don't know is, by far, the bigger fraction of what we don't know. And the only way we ever understand the depths of our ignorance is when those fortunate to be less ignorant point out our lack. And make us clear about our ignorance.

It was one of those light-bulb moments for me. Progress comes through our escape from ignorance. And we only escape ignorance when those less ignorant point out our ignorance. Whether we like it or not.

It is a moral imperative. To the extent that the choices that "suit" the Haitians arise out of their ignorance, yes, we should do things that point out the ignorance of those choices.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:




Nice read Wade. I have a question for you though, maybe i'm just ignorant. Can you explain what the professor told you.

He said:
What we don't know far surpasses what we don't know; and what we don't know we don't know is, by far, the bigger fraction of what we don't know.

Did you mean to say it as this?
What we don't know far surpasses what we do know; and what we don't know we don't know is, by far, the bigger fraction of what we don't know.

That would clear it up for me because I'm reading it over and over trying to get it haha.
--------------------------------------------
UserPostedImage


A wise man once said
---------------------------------------------
You are weak, pathetic and immature..............I would have d
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
15 years ago
Good catch, Gravedigga. That is, indeed, what I meant to say.

(why isn't there a "rueful look" emoticon?)
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Gravedigga
15 years ago

Good catch, Gravedigga. That is, indeed, what I meant to say.

(why isn't there a "rueful look" emoticon?)

"Wade" wrote:



I knew you would finally make an error in one of your posts one day. I've been waiting a long for this moment. Go back to school smartypants. :physassult:
--------------------------------------------
UserPostedImage


A wise man once said
---------------------------------------------
You are weak, pathetic and immature..............I would have d
Nonstopdrivel
15 years ago
I will say that I have never taken the charitable donations deduction. I don't think the government has any business knowing to whom or how much I give.

"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you" (Matthew 6:1-4).
UserPostedImage
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
15 years ago

I will say that I have never taken the charitable donations deduction. I don't think the government has any business knowing to whom or how much I give.

"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you" (Matthew 6:1-4).

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



:)
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
DakotaT
15 years ago

I've got the answer, why don't all the orgnized churches get together, each raiding some of the coffers of wealth they've looted off the ordinary cretins of the world over the last 10 centuries and make an incredible monetary donation?

The IRS has just ok'd a deduction for Haitian relief if one is inclined to itemize. So instead of helping your country out of financial hell, you can elect to help these earthquake victims who are facing a more dire and immediate threat.

"Wade" wrote:



Gee, and here I thought my last long-winded post was a tangent. Thanks, Dakota. No yellow snow for you this week, after all. :)

"DakotaT" wrote:



Hey, this isn't just a pretty face out here in cyberspace pissing off Viking / Favre fans. I got A+'s in Western Civ.

Nonstop is right though, charity is to be anonymous.

Send the yellow snow if you need. I'm a beekeeper in my other life and we need the moisture.

Bee good my excellent friends.
UserPostedImage
Formo
15 years ago

I know I'm gonna get blasted for saying this.. but at this juncture, I could give two squirts of piss.

I give Pat Robertson kudos. Who else would say something like that? Especially knowing how much uproar it would cause? Whether it's true or not, I don't know.. and frankly I don't effing care. Keep in mind what Pat said AFTER making a bold statement.. you know.. the part where he said we should all pray for Haiti and such?

What bothers me most is the hate that is spewed in the comments of those videos on YouTube and such. People actually wishing DEATH and such on him. Class acts!

"Gravedigga" wrote:



Because he's an idiot? "Whether it's true or not" ??? Are you kidding me. Of course it's not true. Only an old senile insensitive idiot would think something like that and only a dirty piece of shit would say it knowing the type of audience he has and effect he has on the simple minded out there.

A quarter of a million people are dead or dying and the death toll will rise because of disease. Only 2000 people died in the world trade center. What if someone said something about it being in the name of religion and America deserved it. The outrage and reaction would be so great that person would have to go in hiding for the rest of his life. Someone in his position cant just say something like that with no repercussions.

What bothers me isn't the hate spewed on a youtube video, it's the 1/4 million people who are dead and the millions who are starving, thirsty and homeless. Taking this opportunity to blast someone who may or may not have "made a pact with the devil" to get their freedom. Oh yea, they were slaves. Possibly there might have been an element a couple hundred years ago who may have wanted people to believe it was a pact with the devil.....hmm, like maybe the slave owners. Also, even if this myth were true, the actions of a few people do not condemn all. What kind of sense would that make? And why would god wait so long? Kidding me?

"Formo" wrote:



Psssst.

Tragedies happen.. Especially when you bring in Mother Nature. Fact of life.

Some people need to realize that. That wasn't a terrorist act against Haiti. It was a freaking earthquake. Big difference.

"Gravedigga" wrote:




I'm not sure what that has to do with it. The comment by Robertson would be out of line in either case. I'm not sure whether it being mother nature or terrorism would have any bearing to you"giving kudos" to that guy for having the guts to speak out like he did. As if he did something great and should be proud.

Hopefully you're never in a position where you or someone you care about is suffering and you have to see some old man who never met you telling millions of people on t.v. it was your fault because of some 200 year old myth about people you never met.

"Formo" wrote:



Define out of line? People say/do stuff out of line ALL the time. It's only when there's a tragedy and when it's some televangelist/radical religious group when it seems to be out of line.

I give him kudos because he stood up for his beliefs, despite the obvious backfire of hatred that would have been thrown his way. I'd rather have someone stand up and say something outrageous/bold despite popular opinion than have them be Capt. Wishy-Washy.

A pretty influential person said something like, "Be hot, or be cold.. But if you are luke warm I will spit you out."
UserPostedImage
Thanks to TheViking88 for the sig!!
Gravedigga
15 years ago

I know I'm gonna get blasted for saying this.. but at this juncture, I could give two squirts of piss.

I give Pat Robertson kudos. Who else would say something like that? Especially knowing how much uproar it would cause? Whether it's true or not, I don't know.. and frankly I don't effing care. Keep in mind what Pat said AFTER making a bold statement.. you know.. the part where he said we should all pray for Haiti and such?

What bothers me most is the hate that is spewed in the comments of those videos on YouTube and such. People actually wishing DEATH and such on him. Class acts!

"Formo" wrote:



Because he's an idiot? "Whether it's true or not" ??? Are you kidding me. Of course it's not true. Only an old senile insensitive idiot would think something like that and only a dirty piece of shit would say it knowing the type of audience he has and effect he has on the simple minded out there.

A quarter of a million people are dead or dying and the death toll will rise because of disease. Only 2000 people died in the world trade center. What if someone said something about it being in the name of religion and America deserved it. The outrage and reaction would be so great that person would have to go in hiding for the rest of his life. Someone in his position cant just say something like that with no repercussions.

What bothers me isn't the hate spewed on a youtube video, it's the 1/4 million people who are dead and the millions who are starving, thirsty and homeless. Taking this opportunity to blast someone who may or may not have "made a pact with the devil" to get their freedom. Oh yea, they were slaves. Possibly there might have been an element a couple hundred years ago who may have wanted people to believe it was a pact with the devil.....hmm, like maybe the slave owners. Also, even if this myth were true, the actions of a few people do not condemn all. What kind of sense would that make? And why would god wait so long? Kidding me?

"Gravedigga" wrote:



Psssst.

Tragedies happen.. Especially when you bring in Mother Nature. Fact of life.

Some people need to realize that. That wasn't a terrorist act against Haiti. It was a freaking earthquake. Big difference.

"Formo" wrote:




I'm not sure what that has to do with it. The comment by Robertson would be out of line in either case. I'm not sure whether it being mother nature or terrorism would have any bearing to you"giving kudos" to that guy for having the guts to speak out like he did. As if he did something great and should be proud.

Hopefully you're never in a position where you or someone you care about is suffering and you have to see some old man who never met you telling millions of people on t.v. it was your fault because of some 200 year old myth about people you never met.

"Gravedigga" wrote:



Define out of line? People say/do stuff out of line ALL the time. It's only when there's a tragedy and when it's some televangelist/radical religious group when it seems to be out of line.

I give him kudos because he stood up for his beliefs, despite the obvious backfire of hatred that would have been thrown his way. I'd rather have someone stand up and say something outrageous/bold despite popular opinion than have them be Capt. Wishy-Washy.

A pretty influential person said something like, "Be hot, or be cold.. But if you are luke warm I will spit you out."

"Formo" wrote:




Out of line: Having a telethon for hatian people and basically calling them devil worshipers who got what they deserved right after hundreds of thousands have died and millions are hungry, suffering, homeless and hopeless. Thats way the fuck out of line.


He says "The devil said ok it's a deal".

Are you fucking kidding me? Was he there? How the fuck would he know what an imaginary evil being said to a bunch of hatians hundreds of years ago?

He called all the building being knocked down, more than are still standing a "blessing in disguise" so now they can rebuild.
--------------------------------------------
UserPostedImage


A wise man once said
---------------------------------------------
You are weak, pathetic and immature..............I would have d
Formo
15 years ago

I know I'm gonna get blasted for saying this.. but at this juncture, I could give two squirts of piss.

I give Pat Robertson kudos. Who else would say something like that? Especially knowing how much uproar it would cause? Whether it's true or not, I don't know.. and frankly I don't effing care. Keep in mind what Pat said AFTER making a bold statement.. you know.. the part where he said we should all pray for Haiti and such?

What bothers me most is the hate that is spewed in the comments of those videos on YouTube and such. People actually wishing DEATH and such on him. Class acts!

"Gravedigga" wrote:



Because he's an idiot? "Whether it's true or not" ??? Are you kidding me. Of course it's not true. Only an old senile insensitive idiot would think something like that and only a dirty piece of shit would say it knowing the type of audience he has and effect he has on the simple minded out there.

A quarter of a million people are dead or dying and the death toll will rise because of disease. Only 2000 people died in the world trade center. What if someone said something about it being in the name of religion and America deserved it. The outrage and reaction would be so great that person would have to go in hiding for the rest of his life. Someone in his position cant just say something like that with no repercussions.

What bothers me isn't the hate spewed on a youtube video, it's the 1/4 million people who are dead and the millions who are starving, thirsty and homeless. Taking this opportunity to blast someone who may or may not have "made a pact with the devil" to get their freedom. Oh yea, they were slaves. Possibly there might have been an element a couple hundred years ago who may have wanted people to believe it was a pact with the devil.....hmm, like maybe the slave owners. Also, even if this myth were true, the actions of a few people do not condemn all. What kind of sense would that make? And why would god wait so long? Kidding me?

"Formo" wrote:



Psssst.

Tragedies happen.. Especially when you bring in Mother Nature. Fact of life.

Some people need to realize that. That wasn't a terrorist act against Haiti. It was a freaking earthquake. Big difference.

"Gravedigga" wrote:




I'm not sure what that has to do with it. The comment by Robertson would be out of line in either case. I'm not sure whether it being mother nature or terrorism would have any bearing to you"giving kudos" to that guy for having the guts to speak out like he did. As if he did something great and should be proud.

Hopefully you're never in a position where you or someone you care about is suffering and you have to see some old man who never met you telling millions of people on t.v. it was your fault because of some 200 year old myth about people you never met.

"Formo" wrote:



Define out of line? People say/do stuff out of line ALL the time. It's only when there's a tragedy and when it's some televangelist/radical religious group when it seems to be out of line.

I give him kudos because he stood up for his beliefs, despite the obvious backfire of hatred that would have been thrown his way. I'd rather have someone stand up and say something outrageous/bold despite popular opinion than have them be Capt. Wishy-Washy.

A pretty influential person said something like, "Be hot, or be cold.. But if you are luke warm I will spit you out."

"Gravedigga" wrote:




Out of line: Having a telethon for hatian people and basically calling them devil worshipers who got what they deserved right after hundreds of thousands have died and millions are hungry, suffering, homeless and hopeless. Thats way the fuck out of line.


He says "The devil said ok it's a deal".

Are you fucking kidding me? Was he there? How the fuck would he know what an imaginary evil being said to a bunch of hatians hundreds of years ago?

"Formo" wrote:



God hates queers, and US soldier's too.

I'm not saying what he said was right or admirable. You fail in understanding this. My point: Have a stance and stick with it. Hot or cold.

Mr. Robertson is one or the other. That's where my kudos comes in.
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