Rockmolder
15 years ago
Their own fault. Survival of the fittest. I bet they didn't do enough dancing for their gods.....

I found this one pretty amazing.

Nigeria
Pledged $1 million to hurricane disaster relief.

That's one generous gift for a country like Nigeria. Relations might have something to do with it, receiving a lot of foreign aid themselfs, but still, it's a great gesture.
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
15 years ago

It is horrible.

I am so proud of the way the average citizen's of Canada and The USA have donated what they can to help these people living in a lawless society ruled by a government that does not really give a rats ass about them.

Personally I donated to "Doctors Without Borders."

I would not give a penny to The Red Cross, or The United Way. The United Way has been proven to be a scam, and the RED CROSS... Well I will never forgive them for the way they made money off of soldiers coming off the battlefields. The Red Cross would take donations from Americans, buy donuts and coffee and sell it to soldiers for a freaking profit.

Ask any WWII vet about the Red Cross.

"RaiderPride" wrote:



My late father (WWII, staff sergeant, Army Air Corps, enlisted "for the duration") never had time for the Red Cross. Said they were good at sucking up to officers, and not much else. (And he never had much time for officers -- more than once got promoted, then pissed someone off, got demoted, did more magic with sheet metal fixing up planes, got promoted again.)

What few good work habits I have come from him. As, I didn't listen enough on other things and so made several extra mistakes; but I did listen to him regarding the Red Cross.

And don't get me started on the United Way. If all "private" charities were like the United Way, I'd be one of those "only government can save us" folk.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
digsthepack
15 years ago
The sad reality is that there can never really be a plan...and no government/people can ever be in any way prepared, for a natural disaster of ths magnitude. Compounding the sheer scale of this tragedy is the antiquated infastructure that exists (if at all) throughout Haiti. And the fact that the population is concentrated in Port Au Prince also creates additional logistics problems. Honestly, the US and Canada (primarily) and other bit players are doing their best...given that the "highly functional" U.N. is in an oversight capacity on the ground.

The larger question is, what becomes of Haiti? Much like so many African nations, Haiti is the product of corrupt dictatorships that enriched themselves and their inner circles, and let their populations langusih in squalor. NO AMOUNT OF MONEY or HUMAN CAPITAL can make a difference until good and honest governance is in place.

So, how does the world, or the Hatian population, make that happen? That is the question that must be answered.
State Motto: "Wisconsin, our serial murderers eat their kill!"
Nonstopdrivel
15 years ago
It's not the business of the world to make that happen; it's the business of the people to make that happen. If they wanted it badly enough, they would have made it happen long ago. Whether we can believe it or not from our vantage point, something about the way things are done in that country suits the people.
UserPostedImage
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
15 years ago

It's not the business of the world to make that happen; it's the business of the people to make that happen. If they wanted it badly enough, they would have made it happen long ago. Whether we can believe it or not from our vantage point, something about the way things are done in that country suits the people.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



Well, that leads to an interesting question: whyever would such a way of doing things suit the people?

And, for the life of me, and though this is going to make me sound horribly Amerocentric and politically incorrect, even for me, I can only think of two possible answers:

1. They're stupid.
2. They're ignorant.

Call me a bigot, but there is such a thing as a "superior" cultural paradigm. And, it seems to me, a culture that yields per capita real purchasing power which is between 100 and 10,000 times greater, nutrition that is substantially higher, and life expectancy on the order of half again as long, is in fact culturally superior to one that does not.

Now, as to #1, I refuse to accept it. That Haitians have done stupid things, I expect. But more than people in general do stupid things. I think not.

Which, then, leaves #2. And, alas, that could be the case.

And, if it is ignorance operating, then, yes, it should be the business of those who are more enlightened and affluent. Part of the reason a profoundly richer culture whose people live longer is superior to one that is not is that it enables that culture to do things that it otherwise could not. Like find ways to make the lot of those less fortunate better.

An ignorant person cannot always "bootstrap" his way out of ignorance, because he cannot always see his ignorance and his lack without help.

This point was driven home to me several years ago when I was a teaching assistant for a professor teaching one of those large lectures in "Western Civilization." As is often the case, the class collectively underperformed on the first exam. You all have heard of this kind of performance: unable to place Germany on the correct continent, failing to get the date of the French revolution within 150 years, etc etc.

After finding out from us TAs just how poorly the performance was, professor's next lecture did postmortem on the exam. And among his remarks was his assertion that the students were rather profoundly ignorant. He went on at a bit of length, explaining why he was *not* calling them stupid, why the consequences of such ignorance were something to try to avoid at all costs, etc. (This, by the way, was the same professor who first introduced to me one of the great essays on why the quality of writing matters, George Orwell's "Politics and the English Language.")

It was one of the most eloquent lectures-within-a-lecture that I've ever heard.

And guess what, it profoundly failed with an awful lot of the ignoramuses (ignorami?) in the room. I know because I had to spend most of the next discussion period trying to deal with student anger and "offense" at being inappropriately called "stupid." I know because, despite his efforts and my own, he got *crucified* two months later in his student evaluations, student after student whining about how he had called them "stupid."

I've spent a lot of time over the years thinking and talking about that lecture on "ignorance" and its aftermath. Because the complaints were too widespread to place on the fraction of the class that might be counted as actually "stupid."

And eventually I remembered something the professor told me when I asked him about it afterward. After joking about how he had the protections of tenure, he got serious and started talking about his moral responsibility as someone who had personally passed that particular barrier of ignorance. I don't remember the exact words, but he said something like this:

Wade, all of us are ignorant about some things. It's part of the nature of being human. What we don't know far surpasses what we don't know; and what we don't know we don't know is, by far, the bigger fraction of what we don't know. And the only way we ever understand the depths of our ignorance is when those fortunate to be less ignorant point out our lack. And make us clear about our ignorance.

It was one of those light-bulb moments for me. Progress comes through our escape from ignorance. And we only escape ignorance when those less ignorant point out our ignorance. Whether we like it or not.

It is a moral imperative. To the extent that the choices that "suit" the Haitians arise out of their ignorance, yes, we should do things that point out the ignorance of those choices.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
dfosterf
15 years ago
Good stuff Wade. +1

I have tried the ignorance vs. stupidity explanation myself, results in keeping with those you describe.

I'll stay out of the philosophical debate regarding what we should do for governments and (incredibly, for me anyway) the people that live under them.

I will just say this. There was an earthquake in Haiti that they so obviously cannot deal with on their own, in our "back yard"- if you will-lucky for them, I say-hundreds of thousands of people are dead and in danger of dying, and we have the capacity to save so many lives that would otherwise be lost. To not do everything in our power to help those poor souls would be so egregiously immoral that I could not even contemplate sitting idly by while that were to happen. I have seen many things in this world that I could have done quite well without having seen, and am aware of many things that I'd just as soon not be aware of. We as a people cannot hide from this one. You might say it would be impossible to remain ignorant to the tragic circumstances there. As to the other places and other tragedies, well, put me down as one that would like to help them too. On a micro level, maybe instead of building another church, the folks could send the cash to [pick your average impoverished African nation and insert here]- I will not hold my breath for that, so I guess I'll just have to hope that there is enough enlightened self-interest in my federal government to help the down-trodden enough to ease our collective conscience enough, hopefully saving lives along the way. I have some faith in that, even knowing that most of the time our aid has more to do with lining the pockets of the agri-business magnates than actually really trying to help anyone in need of it.
Gravedigga
15 years ago

I know I'm gonna get blasted for saying this.. but at this juncture, I could give two squirts of piss.

I give Pat Robertson kudos. Who else would say something like that? Especially knowing how much uproar it would cause? Whether it's true or not, I don't know.. and frankly I don't effing care. Keep in mind what Pat said AFTER making a bold statement.. you know.. the part where he said we should all pray for Haiti and such?

What bothers me most is the hate that is spewed in the comments of those videos on YouTube and such. People actually wishing DEATH and such on him. Class acts!

"Formo" wrote:



Because he's an idiot? "Whether it's true or not" ??? Are you kidding me. Of course it's not true. Only an old senile insensitive idiot would think something like that and only a dirty piece of shit would say it knowing the type of audience he has and effect he has on the simple minded out there.

A quarter of a million people are dead or dying and the death toll will rise because of disease. Only 2000 people died in the world trade center. What if someone said something about it being in the name of religion and America deserved it. The outrage and reaction would be so great that person would have to go in hiding for the rest of his life. Someone in his position cant just say something like that with no repercussions.

What bothers me isn't the hate spewed on a youtube video, it's the 1/4 million people who are dead and the millions who are starving, thirsty and homeless. Taking this opportunity to blast someone who may or may not have "made a pact with the devil" to get their freedom. Oh yea, they were slaves. Possibly there might have been an element a couple hundred years ago who may have wanted people to believe it was a pact with the devil.....hmm, like maybe the slave owners. Also, even if this myth were true, the actions of a few people do not condemn all. What kind of sense would that make? And why would god wait so long? Kidding me?

"Gravedigga" wrote:



Psssst.

Tragedies happen.. Especially when you bring in Mother Nature. Fact of life.

Some people need to realize that. That wasn't a terrorist act against Haiti. It was a freaking earthquake. Big difference.

"Formo" wrote:




I'm not sure what that has to do with it. The comment by Robertson would be out of line in either case. I'm not sure whether it being mother nature or terrorism would have any bearing to you"giving kudos" to that guy for having the guts to speak out like he did. As if he did something great and should be proud.

Hopefully you're never in a position where you or someone you care about is suffering and you have to see some old man who never met you telling millions of people on t.v. it was your fault because of some 200 year old myth about people you never met.
--------------------------------------------
UserPostedImage


A wise man once said
---------------------------------------------
You are weak, pathetic and immature..............I would have d
Nonstopdrivel
15 years ago
I agree that we should do whatever we possibly can to help those less fortunate than ourselves. I just do not believe that the fiat of government is the proper tool for accomplishing this end. I have historically given at least 10 percent of my gross income to relief organizations. I don't know what the United States GDP is, but I know it's in the trillions of dollars. If Americans (and Europeans) gave 10 percent of their GDP toward organizations devoted to conquering Ignorance and Want, global scourges like poverty and hunger could disappear virtually overnight. Heck, we could end hunger in some smaller countries with the food the U.S. Army wastes on a daily basis -- probably the food my university alone wastes everyday. The resources are out there; what is lacking is a concerted vision, passion, and efficient mobilization of these resources. Rather than looking to government for this, we should be putting our money where our mouth is and leading the charge.
UserPostedImage
DakotaT
15 years ago
I've got the answer, why don't all the orgnized churches get together, each raiding some of the coffers of wealth they've looted off the ordinary cretins of the world over the last 10 centuries and make an incredible monetary donation?

The IRS has just ok'd a deduction for Haitian relief if one is inclined to itemize. So instead of helping your country out of financial hell, you can elect to help these earthquake victims who are facing a more dire and immediate threat.
UserPostedImage
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
15 years ago

I agree that we should do whatever we possibly can to help those less fortunate than ourselves. I just do not believe that the fiat of government is the proper tool for accomplishing this end. I have historically given at least 10 percent of my gross income to relief organizations. I don't know what the United States GDP is, but I know it's in the trillions of dollars. If Americans (and Europeans) gave 10 percent of their GDP toward organizations devoted fighting ignorance and want, poverty and hunger would disappear in the world virtually overnight. Heck, we could end hunger in some smaller countries with the food the U.S. Army wastes on a daily basis -- probably the food my university alone wastes everyday. The resources are out there; what is lacking is a concerted vision, passion, and efficient mobilization of these resources.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



Ah, now there I agree with you.

Well, almost. I would only modify one sentence, thusly: "If Americans ..." invested 10 percent of their GDP in for-profit organizations devoted to fighting ignorance and want..." IMO organizations like Doctors without Borders and the Salvation Army accomplish what they do despite the special protection that not-for-profit rules give them, rather than because of it. All the special legal protection does is make it easier for people like the Red Cross, United Way, and, yes, all too many "evangelical Christian" charities, to divert funds and operate in ineffective/inefficient/counterproductive ways.

But that's my market-apologist knee jerking, of course. :)

As an aside (yes, another one), every year at tax time I find myself getting annoyed all over again by the charitable contribution deduction. In particular the "give to recognized charity" rule. Given that you can get back from 30 to 50 percent of gifts to the "proper" group/organization, and you're like Rourke and are a major believer in charity, which makes more economic sense:

1. Give part your income to recognized charities?
2. Give part of your income to your uninsured neighbor who just lost his roof to a hailstorm?

Or put it this way. For those of you big practicers of charity. How many times do you make gifts of $100 to your favorite charity(ies)? Of $250? $500? $1000 or more? And if you do so, how many times do you give similar amounts to an individual or family down the block or rural route facing real adversity (but for which you'll never get a tax deduction)?

When I was a kid, doing that door-to-door fundraising thing for this or that school thing or whatever, I always made a point of going to the people I knew made bigger bucks. It was so cool to be able to brag about the $20 or, once, a crisp $50 bill, when most people might give at most $5 or $10.

Until a bit later, in my brief stint as a lawyer doing tax returns, and I realized these same affluent people were deducting $500 here and $2500 there ... and how many of them went to the United Ways and Red Crosses and scam-artists-recognized-by-the-Code-as-"bonafide charities".


Get rid of the charitable deduction. I'm betting you start seeing a bit more neighborliness and attention to individuals less fortunate.

Oh yes, and by way of aside, the "biggest" givers when I was going door to door? -- it wasn't the rich. And it wasn't the average guy. It was the money-grubbers. Small businessmen who were in business "for the money." I still remember this one guy -- all I knew of him is that my dad didn't really get along with him, and he had a reputation in town for "getting every last cent when making a deal". Cut off his nose to spite his face sort of reputation. I approached him sort of on a dare. And he pulled this big wad out his pocket and pulled off two crisp Grants. Blew me away.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
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