Porforis
15 years ago
Porky, my main point of contention and disbelief was your assertion or implied assertion that income should be directly tied and only tied to difficulty of the job (How about education expenses? Replaceability? Experience?), and that it is somehow unfair that someone that makes less money needs to sacrifice more for health insurance than someone who makes more money and thus has more disposable income. See my last post again if you need more clarification as to what I'm referring to and why. Should I have to pay 1 dollar per gallon for gas, and someone that makes 100 grand a year pay 5 dollars per gallon? Does that make ANY economic sense?
porky88
15 years ago

Porky, my main point of contention and disbelief was your assertion or implied assertion that income should be directly tied and only tied to difficulty of the job (How about education expenses? Replaceability? Experience?), and that it is somehow unfair that someone that makes less money needs to sacrifice more for health insurance than someone who makes more money and thus has more disposable income. See my last post again if you need more clarification as to what I'm referring to and why. Should I have to pay 1 dollar per gallon for gas, and someone that makes 100 grand a year pay 5 dollars per gallon? Does that make ANY economic sense?

"Porforis" wrote:



I know what you're saying. It's unfair to tax them more because they make more, but we don't live in a country and haven't for along time that can go without taxes. If they're necessary, I raise the rich before I raise middle.

If I'm racing sled dogs, do I put a wounded dog on the team or go with the strongest? Go with the strongest.

Look at our country's history since WW2. We've been at war or involved in a war in every single decade since then. We're going to be at war in this next decade too. Normally, taxes rise during wartime so it can be paid for. After the Recession passes and it will eventually, we may and probably will still be at war.

I don't want this to turn into a military debate though or about how people feel about it.
Porforis
15 years ago

Porky, my main point of contention and disbelief was your assertion or implied assertion that income should be directly tied and only tied to difficulty of the job (How about education expenses? Replaceability? Experience?), and that it is somehow unfair that someone that makes less money needs to sacrifice more for health insurance than someone who makes more money and thus has more disposable income. See my last post again if you need more clarification as to what I'm referring to and why. Should I have to pay 1 dollar per gallon for gas, and someone that makes 100 grand a year pay 5 dollars per gallon? Does that make ANY economic sense?

"porky88" wrote:



I know what you're saying. It's unfair to tax them more because they make more, but we don't live in a country and haven't for along time that can go without taxes. If they're necessary, I raise the rich before I raise middle.

If I'm racing sled dogs, do I put a wounded dog on the team or go with the strongest? Go with the strongest.

Look at our country's history since WW2. We've been at war or involved in a war in every single decade since then. We're going to be at war in this next decade too. Normally, taxes rise during wartime so it can be paid for. After the Recession passes and it will eventually, we may and probably will still be at war.

I don't want this to turn into a military debate though or about how people feel about it.

"Porforis" wrote:



Still not my point, there's really not a point of contention between the two of us, except this statement of yours. Can you please clarify exactly what you meant by this? Was my interpretation off-base?

Basically, sacrifice to get insurance. Wealthy people work hard to get where they are, but why should a middle class citizen have to sacrifice more in his life because his job pays less even though his job might be much harder to do.

You say don't get cable tv as an example and I say to the rich, don't buy your fancy cars or give out vacations as bonuses and instead use the money properly in your business. Play time can wait.

Obviously, people are living in houses they can't afford and people spend to much (tv as your example) but so does the rich. They waste as much money if not more than anyone else. Well, logically, they do waste more money because they have more of it to waste. Yes, they can create jobs, but they can also be careless with their expenses. No doubt that has occurred over the last decade.

porky88
15 years ago
My main point is that everyone has screwed up to some extent from the top to bottom, so everyone is going to have to sacrifice.

I don't think it's fair for the little guy to have to sacrifice HBO, his car, or his house and the guy at the top sacrifices next to nothing, when there are a lot of underpaid workers out there that are doing hard labor. For the record, I'm not one of them. The rich is going to have sacrifice some as well. Obviously, I'm not saying how someone should run their business. That's their choice.

It's also alarming that the span between "rich" and "poor" is as large as it's been since the great depression and even further back than that. That's ridiculous for the age we live in. Is the big guy really sacrificing? Maybe, but probably not enough.

Look at the stock market. Nobody cares about the market now. It's all good again in Wall-street. Not so much in main street. This Health-care bill actually helps insurance companies and the stock market reflects that. Obama has actually been pretty good to the big guy as President.
Nonstopdrivel
15 years ago

Just because he labels Obama a socialist (which he is at best) doesn't mean anything about Bush.. Bush isn't in power any more, no need to point out his poor presidency.

"Formo" wrote:



Yes, there absolutely is a need to do so, because dheah_gb was indulging in some irresponsible hyperbole that needs to be called out.

You really cannot do much worse than a socialist that I personally believe, wants to destroy the fundamentals of the country.

"dyeah_gb" wrote:



He pretty clearly labels Obama the worst possible president here, but the criteria he gives for doing so apply equally as well to Bush. But he ignores the fact that Bush trampled on the Constitution and acted like a tyrant in ways few other presidents have dared to try (LBJ came close, with his literal physical assaults on legislators in the halls of Congress). Obama, by contrast, has worked within the system, letting Congress take control of the legislative process, and even though his pet policies are fundamentally flawed, you have to respect him for showing Congress -- and the Constitution -- that respect.

Labeling him the worst president while ignoring the flagrant abuses of Bush -- which were not only socialistic but in many cases far more detrimental to the constitutional system of checks and balances -- is to invalidate his argument. I have no problem labeling Bush a much worse president because he spit on the Constitution in the name of freedom. I'd far rather have an honest liberal, even a socialist, in power than a two-faced, hypocritical tyrant on a religious crusade. I respect a man who tells me he's my enemy and shows me the sword in his hand over a man who calls himself my friend even as he's twisting his dagger a little deeper in my back.
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Pack93z
15 years ago



He pretty clearly labels Obama the worst possible president here, but the criteria he gives for doing so apply equally as well to Bush. But he ignores the fact that Bush trampled on the Constitution and acted like a tyrant in ways few other presidents have dared to try (LBJ came close, with his literal physical assaults on legislators in the halls of Congress). Obama, by contrast, has worked within the system, letting Congress take control of the legislative process, and even though his pet policies are fundamentally flawed, you have to respect him for showing Congress -- and the Constitution -- that respect.

Labeling him the worst president while ignoring the flagrant abuses of Bush -- which were not only socialistic but in many cases far more detrimental to the constitutional system of checks and balances -- is to invalidate his argument. I have no problem labeling Bush a much worse president because he spit on the Constitution in the name of freedom. I'd far rather have an honest liberal, even a socialist, in power than a two-faced, hypocritical tyrant on a religious crusade. I respect a man who tells me he's my enemy and shows me the sword in his hand over a man who calls himself my friend even as he's twisting his dagger a little deeper in my back.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



Some of the best stuff of the thread.

I might not be sold on all the policies that Obama has pushed or put into action.. but to ignore that position that not only Bush but going back a decade or better has placed us in.. I cannot see where so many are so quick to pile everything upon a single 11 month term.

I have no issue placing blame at Obama's feet.. but I cannot justify placing blame at his alone.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
4PackGirl
15 years ago
i hate the labels put on the classes. each class carries it's share of good & bad so to make sweeping comments about the rich or poor doesn't work for me. each of the classes created this problem & we all have to work/sacrifice to fix it.
Cheesey
15 years ago
Problem is 4pack, too many want the handout without ever having worked for it in the first place.
So some think the answer is to rob from the rich.
It happened in New York. They upped the taxes so high on all the rich people there, guess what? Most of them moved out of New York. So NY lost not onlt the "extra" money they thought they would get, but also most of the "pre-rape" taxes they were already getting.
And i can't blame people for moving.
Just like the companies that move out of the U.S. Why do they do it? They get RAKED by the government. Wisconsin loses alot of companies because of our tax crazy state. And the current governor, Doyle, LOVES spending our and company's money.
I can't blame big business for going to Mexico and China.
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Nonstopdrivel
15 years ago
This thread has put me in the position of defending Barack Obama. I feel dirty. lol
UserPostedImage
4PackGirl
15 years ago
lol, non. no need to defend anyone - it's a societal issue - NOT a governmental one & yet the gov't (as usual) thinks they have all the answers.

update - just noticed that a dem is planning on voting against. perhaps there won't be a bill passed this week, after all. yippee!! :D

true story which is so odd cuz we've been talking about welfare & such...
a friend of mine works as a grade school teacher in the 'hood' of peoria. she asked her 5th grade class what they wanted to be when they grow up. one girl raised her hand & said she wants to work for the gov't. my friend asked her in what capacity? the girls answer was and i quote "i want to work where my mom does - that welfare deal. you know, she has more children & her job pays for it. she decides to move & her job pays for it. yeah, that's exactly what i want to do."

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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