Cheesey
15 years ago
Raising taxes is NOT the answer. The more they raise them, the more money they piss away.
Like Porforis said, if they stopped spending like druken sailors, there would be plenty of tax money already to get EVERYTHING we NEED done.
But as i stated before, the government NEVER has their feet held to the fire. They don't have to answer for the wasted billions. They just spend. Why? Because they don't have to EARN what they spend. They just take it, and blow it.
The ONLY way anything will ever change is if there was an independant watch dog group that checked out every penny brought in, and where it went.
But we all know that will never happen.
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Formo
15 years ago
Raising taxes.. especially for the rich.. is NOT the answer. I don't care how logical it is, it's not the answer. I wonder if people wonder why companies that were started here in America outsource so much? Wages and taxable income. Lower the taxes, a significant amount, under the 'demand' that there will be ZERO outsourcing. I wonder how our job economy would do then?

BTW, when you're rich, you don't use insurance. It's cheaper and you get access to MANY MANY more opportunities when you pay in cash (cash, you know.. those green pieces of paper? Yes, they are a form of currency.. I know today's society likes to imply that the only way to pay for anything is through credit or insurance, but that's false).

I always wonder what exactly you want in your president.

I'm all for socialistic reforms. No, not communism, but just getting away from this ultra capitalistic plan where only the rich can afford good health care and single moms/dads instantly fall bellow the poverty line if they want to raise their kids a bit, as well.

So what is it? Economy? Clinton peaked your economy, but I see him being scolded often enough. FDR wanted too much power. Truman didn't handle the war against Korea correctly. Hoover kept his hands off of the economy too much during the great depression according to some, but was too hands on according to others. Bush, well, he dodged that shoe in a pretty nifty manner.

Point is, have you ever had a good president?

Of course, you critize your president on some points, but has there ever been a good one? Or is Washington the only one? And does he only get a free pass because he kind off 'made' America?

"Rockmolder" wrote:



You're all for socialist reform because it's all you know and were taught. I'm willing to bet your government has a tiny bit of say on how your countries students are taught, no? Think they don't put a bit of spin on their teaching?

Capitalism is how this country was founded successfully. And it's the longest running government in the world. And now people want to change it? The 'cure' for our government is to rid it of the corruption. Which probably means a clean slate with the consititution being reinforced as the end all.

If someone wants a socialist economy, they can move to one of the many socialist countries the world has.

WHY the hell should the upperclass be taxed higher? i'll never understand that. those people worked hard to get where they are so why should they have to 'bail out' the lower class people?

"DakotaT" wrote:




See this is BS. Most upperclass were born into their wealth, not "worked hard" for it. If they want to tax the rich, than go after the trust funds and envoke laws to against the free passage of wealth within a family.

I really dislike people that have been handed their whole lives on a silver platter.

Now, the people I do respect are those which have built their lives from ground up and "worked hard" to have earned everything they own. Unfortunatly, this is 90 percent of your tax base.

"4PackGirl" wrote:



Eh? So, because I bust my ass of for the benefit of my family, and want to hand my business down to my kids if they so choose.. I can't because they are silver spoon fed everything? No.

News flash people.. No matter how hard you try to 'fix' any nation.. You'll NEVER eliminate the gap between the upper class and the lower class. Stop trying.


For you to label Obama a socialist and let Bush off the hook is laughable. All Obama has done is cut a few pages out of Bush's playbook and blow them up a bit. He hasn't done anything that Bush hadn't already initiated in his own administration.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



Just because he labels Obama a socialist (which he is at best) doesn't mean anything about Bush.. Bush isn't in power any more, no need to point out his poor presidency.
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Thanks to TheViking88 for the sig!!
Porforis
15 years ago
I'm kind of amazed. I'll start out by stating (again) that I make less than 20k/year, by no means am I wealthy, and I've had plenty of bad luck. Context and a little background never hurts.

Basically, sacrifice to get insurance. Wealthy people work hard to get where they are, but why should a middle class citizen have to sacrifice more in his life because his job pays less even though his job might be much harder to do.

"porky88" wrote:



I'm wondering if I even need to comment here, or if I'm completely missing your point. Are you implying that it's not fair that a middle class citizen needs to sacrifice a higher percentage of his income than a wealthy person to get the same service? I fail to see how such an economy would function. Why not just completely redistribute wealth evenly so everyone has the same amount of money?

Not all wealthy people work hard to get where they are, just like not all non-wealthy people work hard to get where they are. Why should a middle class citizen have to sacrifice more to get what he wants? Because he makes less money. Life's not fair, you might not catch some breaks that other people take, but the government shouldn't be allowed to tell you how much money you should make and what you should do with it. Especially not until they get their own shit together.

You say don't get cable tv as an example and I say to the rich, don't buy your fancy cars or give out vacations as bonuses and instead use the money properly in your business. Play time can wait.

Obviously, people are living in houses they can't afford and people spend to much (tv as your example) but so does the rich. They waste as much money if not more than anyone else. Well, logically, they do waste more money because they have more of it to waste. Yes, they can create jobs, but they can also be careless with their expenses. No doubt that has occurred over the last decade.

"porky88" wrote:



Play time can wait until when? Use the money properly in your business? Who determines what is an appropriate use of funds, you, or someone that's gone to college for business and run a major company for decades? A government bureaucracy? Government's sure good at running a modest profit while driving long-term growth. <_>

Regardless, your point here seems to be that rich people waste money too. I agree completely. However, why are they being taxed at 5 times the rate I am? If I make 20 grand a year and spend 6,000 a year on things I don't NEED (which I did this year, gas on travel to see family not included), why can't someone that makes 20 million spend 6 million a year on things they don't need? Why is it's government's job to tell you how much money you should make, what you should spend it on, and what you should do with the money you're not taking home out of pocket? How much money did you spend this year on things you don't need?

There is no one sided victory. Everyone is responsible starting at the top and working it's way down.

The government will always spend money as well. It's easy to bring up the stupid programs that they're spending on, but America is never going to stop trying to advance it's self whether they do it through the means of research or military, which costs money. Every President has some sort of program.

"porky88" wrote:



The last program and deficit of this magnitude was called World War II, and at least that caused industrial production to explode. I understand that every year, government wastes money. It's what government does best, I understand completely. But you can't take a look at what Obama and Pelosi have managed to spend in one year and compare it to anybody in the last 60 years.

You tax people who can afford to pay em. It's common sense.

"porky88" wrote:



It's also common sense that you don't increase taxes on the people that create jobs when you have 10% unemployment, and tack a nearly 1 trillion healthcare bill on top of the largest deficit ever. Based on this and past comments, I think you also underestimate how much money you and other people that are lower/middle class waste on shit they don't need. Is it the time to cut taxes? No. But the complete wrong time to increase them.

Obama isn't Robin Hood or not the extent that some claim he is. He's a tax and spend liberal which is by no means a good thing either. He has a ton of programs, but take out all those programs, and the end result is still bad because no matter what, as I said above, America will be America and they'll attempt to continue to evolve. Nothing today is free. A spending freeze would be nice, but in reality, it'll never happen. Even Thomas Jefferson, who could be considered the father of small government, spent money specifically the Louisiana Purchase. He did succeed in reducing debt, but he did so because he halted the army and navy or that's one way to put it.

"porky88" wrote:



A spending freeze is too drastic. The federal government is too big of a ship to turn around that fast, and that's part of why this rapid expansion of the role of government is concerning me so much. The first step is to enact reasonable healthcare reform. Strip away anti-trust exemptions if you must, increase regulation if you must, but do what you can without significantly increasing your expenses. You can get results without spending trillions.
DakotaT
15 years ago
Cheesey, you are talking about accountability, and there is none of that in this country, and where do we start pointing the finger? Well I guess we can start with ourselves. I think the biggest problem we face as a country is that we have collectively lost our work ethic. Our children are fat and lazy because they play video games instead of running around outdoors. We adults have become slaves to computers and cell phones, and we can't even function without them.

If we go into politics, well I think both parties play us for fools. The democrats sell the idea to the poor and undereducated that the Republicans are rich and don't care about them. The dems really don't care either but if they get their vote they do some fluffy things to help out. When in power the Republicans just ignore poverty. The biggest crisis facing democracy and freedom is illiterate citizens, because both parties prey on these people. As a middle class taxpayer in this country, I do not associate with either party and I am extremely frustrated that my needs and concerns are not addressed by either party. I am not being represented in Washington by anyone.

And as for spirituality, I think old Satan Claus is winning that battle as well. Is there really much good going on in the world, or do we dwell on the bad? I really try not to watch the news cause it bums me out something terrible. I guess these problems are bigger than any of us so I guess we can try and do is live correctly and raise our children to be well adjusted human beings who do good deeds and live wholesome lives.

I'm tired of a person's success being judged by how much their bottom line net worth is when their soul is corroded. If you really want the answer to these monetary problems in our country, it isn't about the point of taxation, the answer lies within each and every one of our hearts and helping our fellow man. But those ideas went bye bye long ago, and they can't be resurrected by crooked politicians and clergy, they need to be recognized by each one of us.
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Cheesey
15 years ago
True Dakota, very true.
"He who dies with the most toys, wins" is our nation's moto today. They grab all they can. But you can't take it with you when you die.
I wish there was something i could do to turn this country back on track.
I'd LOVE to be president. But i'd be assassinated in the first month, as I wouldn't be bought off. I'd push for accountability.
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Porforis
15 years ago

True Dakota, very true.
"He who dies with the most toys, wins" is our nation's moto today. They grab all they can. But you can't take it with you when you die.
I wish there was something i could do to turn this country back on track.
I'd LOVE to be president. But i'd be assassinated in the first month, as I wouldn't be bought off. I'd push for accountability.

"Cheesey" wrote:



And congress would eat you alive. Reform can't come from just one branch.
Cheesey
15 years ago
True again, Porforis.
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Formo
15 years ago

True Dakota, very true.
"He who dies with the most toys, wins" is our nation's moto today. They grab all they can. But you can't take it with you when you die.

"Cheesey" wrote:



So true.. Listen to the song, "American Dream" by Casting Crowns.
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Thanks to TheViking88 for the sig!!
DakotaT
15 years ago

True Dakota, very true.
"He who dies with the most toys, wins" is our nation's moto today. They grab all they can. But you can't take it with you when you die.
I wish there was something i could do to turn this country back on track.
I'd LOVE to be president. But i'd be assassinated in the first month, as I wouldn't be bought off. I'd push for accountability.

"Porforis" wrote:



And congress would eat you alive. Reform can't come from just one branch.

"Cheesey" wrote:



Reform comes from the hearts and minds of men and women not a bunch of crooks working from streets and buildings lined with gold from the backs of honest people. The citizens of this country need to take back their country.
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porky88
15 years ago
Porforis,

It seems like your drawing conclusions on my post. Just because I think taxes should be raised doesn't mean I think they should be raised at the snap of a finger or that I'm for spreading wealth. I think we actually agree.

It's common overreaction. 4% raise on their taxes and all of a sudden America is dead. It's ridiculous.

I think taxes are too low right now on the rich. 36% is not high enough when your spending as much as we are and that's before Obama, but as I've said in my only two posts in this thread, you don't raise them until your out of the recession which we are not out of considering how high unemployment is.

I think you wait until after the recession and you raise taxes. Fourth time I said that. However, I don't think raising taxes 4% on the wealthy is socialism or the end of America as we know it. It's not. Was Clinton a Socalist? Reagan? Eisenhower?

The taxes on the wealthy were higher then than it is now.

As I said before, the wealthy have had their taxes drop 14% give or take in 50 years. Yes, they pay lot, but they make a lot and they still prosper. America is all about having the ability to start small and prosper. As long as people can still prosper, America is still America. Raising taxes after the recession to I believe 39.5% for the rich is not killing America. People will still have the ability to prosper.

Again, I'm seriously not for raising taxes until this recession passes. I'd probably wait until 2011 and address the situation then. Whatever that may be. I agree, raising taxes now on ANYONE would be terrible and that's what's going to happen it sounds like.
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