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wils0646
15 years ago
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/65706132.html 

Green Bay There's no disputing it, the Green Bay Packers are the worst team in the league when it comes to penalties.

They are tied with the Buffalo Bills at the bottom with an average of 8.6 penalties per game. The Packers are all by themselves in yards (71.8).

They also happen to be 3-2 and would be in the playoffs if they started today.

Do the Packers need to clean up their sloppy play? Yes. Are they going to make the playoffs if they finish their current pace of 136 penalties for 1,149 yards? Probably not.

But here's the thing about penalties. Sure, it makes great talk-radio fodder. But the truth is, penalties don't matter as long as you are solid in other areas, namely protecting the quarterback and taking care of the ball.

And you don't need to go back very far back in Packers history for proof.

The Packers' last two NFC North division titles came in 2004 and '07. Those teams stand fourth and fifth, respectively, for most penalties in a season (116 and 113) in team history.

Brett Favre was sacked 14 times total in '04 and 19 in '07.

Aaron Rodgers has been dropped 25 times in five games.

The numbers also show the Packers are capable of doing damage if they cut down on the sacks.

The Packers average 2.13 points per drive this season when you eliminate run-out-the-clock scenarios.

When they don't have a sack or penalty on a drive, the Packers average 3.18 points. For comparison, the New Orleans Saints, with the NFL's top offense, average 3.84. The third-ranked Indianapolis Colts average 2.7.

When the Packers have a penalty on a drive, their average slips to 2.07. When they have a sack, it falls off a cliff to 0.75.

So basically, if the Packers cut back a little on the penalties and greatly improve on the offensive line they should be fine.

Want further proof of penalties' nominal effect on a team's success?

Of the 20 teams to advance to the league title games the previous five seasons, five (25%) finished in the top seven for penalties, including the Arizona Cardinals (fifth) and Baltimore Ravens (seventh) last year. The teams allowed 28 and 33 sacks, respectively.

And of the four most penalized teams in league history, none finished worse than 7-9. The 1989 Houston Oilers, who are fifth with 149 penalties, made the playoffs at 9-7.

The 1998 Kansas City Chiefs still rank as the most penalized in NFL history with 158 fouls and 1,304 yards. The quarterbacks coach on Marty Schottenheimer's staff was a mustachioed fellow by the name of Michael John McCarthy.

"It's 11 years ago," McCarthy said. "I don't think it has anything to do with what's going on here. It's a different team. I think it's a stretch (to draw any conclusion). I'll say this, Marty Schottenheimer won over 200 football games in the National Football League."

Schottenheimer also fielded some highly aggressive teams, probably because they had to go blow-for-blow in the AFC West with the Los Angeles Raiders, who led the league in penalties just about every year during that stretch.

McCarthy was on Schottenheimer's staff from 1993-'98 with the Chiefs. They ranked in the top four in penalties five times in that span and seventh once. The Chiefs also went 13-3 twice, advanced to the AFC championship at 11-5 and had just one losing record, in '98.

After that season, Schottenheimer resigned.

McCarthy still said he thinks penalties are important.

"Well, penalties are a negative," McCarthy said. "I think the way you approach them is no different than other things. I mean, pre-snap penalties, there's no excuse for them. I think anybody in football would say that. And that's really the thing we need to get rid of.

"We had five in one game. That's why our numbers are blown out of proportion after five games. We address it, we practice it and we train it. But we're creating a competitive, aggressive culture so there's some times where we may cross the line, and those are the things we work on every day. That's football."

In their 2007 Pro Football Prospectus, Aaron Schatz and Bill Barnwell from footballoutsiders.com studied penalties from 2002-'06. They found there was "almost zero" correlation between record and defensive or special-team penalties. There was, however, a much stronger correlation with offensive penalties.

And in that respect, the Packers are still doing well, even after Sunday's display against the Detroit Lions when they had six offensive infractions. It brought their total to 14, which is one more than the Colts (13) and fewer than the Saints (16).


The Packers do as much, maybe more, to prevent penalties as other teams. They have local referees at every practice. They go over it in film study. McCarthy yanks players when they commit an infraction in practice. Yes, he doesn't get red in the face as Mike Holmgren used to.

McCarthy could decide to have his players run laps after penalties, which is what Cleveland Browns coach Eric Mangini continues to do.

"Last year at this time, we were 32nd in the league in penalties," Mangini said. "This year, we're third. That's progress."

The Browns finished 4-12 last year.

They are 1-5 entering Sunday's game against the Green Bay Packers.


The Pack Will Be Back.
obi1
15 years ago
Good article. Thus the Packer Oline shuffle. I don't think he wrote anything the bosses on the team didn't know but I think it adds fuel to the fodder that our Oline is in need of work.

It seems that our oline offers the double whammy as it is penalty AND sack prone...

I await the time when Rodgers gets the time to throw... Hopefully right soon!
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wils0646
15 years ago
Seriously, even if we just cut our sack totals to 2 or 3 per game, we'd be scoring more and obviously winning more.

An 80 sack pace is ridiculous and hurting our team more than anything.
The Pack Will Be Back.
Pack93z
15 years ago
Hmm and people wonder why we are hammering the oline topic over and over.. Sacks don't even tell the whole "pressure" story and its impact.

BTW.. I don't discount the penalties as much as the article... but I will buy into the importance of offensive penalties over defensive.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Porforis
15 years ago
This article isn't really news. Yes, giving up sacks is going to hurt more than a false start or holding penalty because...

1. You'll lose just as many yards, or more, as well as lose a down
2. Your QB will get banged up
3. Large number of sacks reflects poorly on the O line and QB, which snowball into larger issues

Kind of a "duh" article for me. Yes, there's more important things to worry about. Yes, the penalties need to be cleaned up.
bozz_2006
15 years ago
So all they have to do is cut down on all the penalties and greatly improve their offensive line play? No problem! lol.

I like the stats in the article though.
UserPostedImage
matteogb4
15 years ago
i dont care...stop the penalites either way....


...and stop allowing sakcs...

that means playoff almost for sure
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PackFanWithTwins
15 years ago
Penalties have a habit of creating more penalties. The more desperate the team gets, the more they will create. Outside of Clifton, I was fairly happy with penalties besides ST last game. Throw out the good Driver and Colledge flags, and there were 3 penalties on the offense and defense. ST is another story.

I hope Lang plays well and removes any consideration of Chad returning to the starting lineup. We can have sacks now and then, those coverage sacks that happen. It is the quick sacks that are killers. There should never be pressure on a 3 step drop, and as Mike McCarthy said during his show. There should never be a LBer coming through like they did last game. Mental mistakes we can fix, technique we can coach.
The world needs ditch diggers too Danny!!!
wils0646
15 years ago
Did you guys realize that defensive/special teams penalties don't hurt as much as people think? That's one of our main "problems", but statistics show that there is no correlation between that and losing games. We are lower in the league in offensive penalties, which are more detrimental to the team's success. I just like this article because it shows that there is really only one thing (albeit a huge one) to fix our team.

A little optimism I guess.
The Pack Will Be Back.
15 years ago

The Packers do as much, maybe more, to prevent penalties as other teams. They have local referees at every practice. They go over it in film study. McCarthy yanks players when they commit an infraction in practice. Yes, he doesn't get red in the face as Mike Holmgren used to.



That was my favorite part of the article.

This is sort of where i was going with my thread on how important 3rd down and medium or short is.
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beast (30-Dec) : Well, Commanders are currently the 6th seed and Packers the 7th
beast (30-Dec) : Who was it in Chat, that wanted the Vikings to win (because Lions fans upset them) because Packers could not lose the 6th seed?
beast (30-Dec) : If Falcons win, Packers stay as the 6th seed and Falcons lead the NFCS, if they lose, Commanders 6th and Bucs take NFCS lead
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Mucky Tundra (30-Dec) : if the Falcons win, how does that affect the overall NFC playoff picture? Does it mean that the NFC South comes down to week 18?
beast (30-Dec) : If Commanders win, the Packers drop to the 7th seed
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