Gravedigga
15 years ago

Frankly, I cringed to see Dan Marino's name on the list for much the same reason I cringed to see John Elway's name mentioned in this conversation.

Marino was king of the regular season, but he was mediocre to downright bad in the postseason. Twice he played withe the number-one defense in the league and played with a couple other top-five defenses. He had stunning running games that ground out 1900 to over 2000 yards in a season. Yet he was never able to get it done in the postseason. Consider this quote :

Myth: Marino was a big-game quarterback.

Cold, Hard Football Facts: Want to know the real reason why Marino never won a Super Bowl? Sadly, the answer sits with Dan Marino himself.

Simply put, Marino did not elevate his game in the playoffs. In fact, his played dropped off quite noticeably. Marino has a career regular season passer rating of 86.4. His postseason passer rating was just 77.1. He played in 18 playoff games, and won just eight of them.

In his one Super Bowl appearance (a 38-16 loss to the 49ers in Super Bowl XIX), Marino completed 29 of 50 passes for 318 yards, 1 TD and 2 INTs. It adds up to a weak 66.9 passer rating.
One wonders what might have happened had his two Super Bowl drives that ended in interceptions ended in touchdowns instead.

Remember that 1998 Miami team that had the best defense in football? It made the playoffs, but Marino failed to hold up his end of the bargain. The season ended in the second round of the playoffs, with Marino coughing up two interceptions against Denver and posting a passer rating of just 65.5. Yet another opportunity for Marino to win a Super Bowl tossed into the hands of an opposing defender.

In fact, Marino threw at least one interception in 13 of his 18 career playoff games. He threw two or more interceptions 10 times. The Dolphins went just 1-9 in those 10 Marino multi-interception playoff games.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



Clutch in the regular season Marino may have been, but not in the postseason. He had downright Elwayesque numbers in the Super Bowl.



1998 for marino? Come on, he was like 37 years old at the time, hobbling around on one leg. Yea they had a "good defense" because they ran the ball all the time and asked marino to bail them out at the end of the game. Their "good" running game was weak. They would run the ball like 35 times for like 3 -3.5 yards per carry. Very weak running game they had. They played control the clock until the last 5 mins when marino would have to win it.

I'm in Florida and have had to hear it all the time from dolfans. Their run game was one of the worst per carry in the league and their defense was pretty good but could get exploited by good offenses. And that #1 ranked 1998 Dolphin defense gave up 38 points to the Broncos who were the eventual superbowl champs that year. They also only got 14 rush yards that day.

also the following quote

He had stunning running games that ground out 1900 to over 2000 yards in a season. Yet he was never able to get it done in the postseason.



1984, his first season, they had 1918 yards, good enough for 16th best in the league. yes, this was the best the dolphins ever managed to finish with Marino. Stunning running game? It was ranked in the mid - late 20's most of the time. It was non existent just like their defense for all but a few years of his career(when he was hobbling around on one good foot).
--------------------------------------------
UserPostedImage


A wise man once said
---------------------------------------------
You are weak, pathetic and immature..............I would have d
Cheesey
15 years ago
Yes, you NEED a great defense to win. But that doesn't take away from the fact that you need to SCORE in order to win.
UserPostedImage
porky88
15 years ago
Defense wins championships is a myth.

Teams win championships.

Just looking at the Super Bowl as a basis for John Elway is ridiculous. That's it. Since when is one game a judgment of an entire career? I'm not taking anything away from the Super Bowl because after all Elway has two rings, but the demonizing of John Elway by Packer fans seems like bitterness more than anything to me.

Stats determine who the best fantasy football QB is. Not who the best QB is. Keyword is fantasy.

The arguement goes from Elway isn't clutch look at the Super Bowls to well yeah he was good in the AFC Title games, but Starr followed up his Ice Bowl with a Super Bowl MVP.

Elway followed up two championship games with two Super Bowl wins and an MVP too. That's pretty good.

Elway has 40+ career come from behind victories. He has one of the biggest drives in the history of the game in yes a big game. So he didn't do it in the Super Bowl.

Neither did Brett Favre. Bart Starr neither had to either.

Starr's coach was Vince Lombardi though and he played on a team with what is it 10 or 11 Hall of Famers. Maybe there is a reason why he never had too.

Does that take away from Starr? I don't think it does. Yet some take away from Elway because of Terrell Davis. One player and Elway's Super Bowls are a "never would've" and Starr had like 10 players of that caliber and the greatest coach ever.

Just looking for consistency.

My point wasn't to compare the two players or teams for that matter. My point was to say Championship Games are big games. I hardly doubt Packer fans would consider the Ice Bowl as a minimal game. It wasn't. It was huge.

Elway rose to the occasion on those games especially near the end in of course one of the greatest games ever played.

So what if his moment came in the AFC Title game instead of the Super Bowl.

Why would Denver put the ball into Elway's hands when Green Bay couldn't stop Terrell Davis?

Is that Elway's fault?

Personally, that's Green Bay's fault.

Is it Brett Favre's fault the defense couldn't stop Terrell Davis?

I don't think it is which is why that game doesn't make me think anything less of Favre. Same reason why I don't think anything less of Elway when he loses with the No. 1 defense especially when that defense gives up 55 points. Yet that is on Elway?

Denver overwhelmed Atlanta anyways in which Elway threw for over 300 yards and a touchdown.

Not bad for someone who does poorly in the Super Bowl.

I think what makes Elway great is the fact that he was able to go from "the man or president" to I guess the vice president. He put his ego aside for a Championship and let Terrell Davis carry them.

Not many players will do that.

That's why Elway is in my top three with Montana and Tom Brady when he retires.

Brady does the exact same thing in New England. He let's Belichick by "the man" because he rightfully is.

Montana would do it too. Jerry Rice was the most explosive weapon on that team.

Not Montana and that's the way Montana wanted it.

Those QB's are great and clutch because they can manage the game or take it over and win it if they have too. They don't over do it and they don't do to little. They do what they're told and rise the occasion.

Stats don't tell you that.
Zero2Cool
15 years ago
porky88, I completely forgot that Elway got his first ring against us until you just mentioned it.
UserPostedImage
Gravedigga
15 years ago

Defense wins championships is a myth.

Teams win championships.

Just looking at the Super Bowl as a basis for John Elway is ridiculous. That's it. Since when is one game a judgment of an entire career? I'm not taking anything away from the Super Bowl because after all Elway has two rings, but the demonizing of John Elway by Packer fans seems like bitterness more than anything to me.

Stats determine who the best fantasy football QB is. Not who the best QB is. Keyword is fantasy.

The arguement goes from Elway isn't clutch look at the Super Bowls to well yeah he was good in the AFC Title games, but Starr followed up his Ice Bowl with a Super Bowl MVP.

Elway followed up two championship games with two Super Bowl wins and an MVP too. That's pretty good.

Elway has 40+ career come from behind victories. He has one of the biggest drives in the history of the game in yes a big game. So he didn't do it in the Super Bowl.

Neither did Brett Favre. Bart Starr neither had to either.

Starr's coach was Vince Lombardi though and he played on a team with what is it 10 or 11 Hall of Famers. Maybe there is a reason why he never had too.

Does that take away from Starr? I don't think it does. Yet some take away from Elway because of Terrell Davis. One player and Elway's Super Bowls are a "never would've" and Starr had like 10 players of that caliber and the greatest coach ever.

Just looking for consistency.

My point wasn't to compare the two players or teams for that matter. My point was to say Championship Games are big games. I hardly doubt Packer fans would consider the Ice Bowl as a minimal game. It wasn't. It was huge.

Elway rose to the occasion on those games especially near the end in of course one of the greatest games ever played.

So what if his moment came in the AFC Title game instead of the Super Bowl.

Why would Denver put the ball into Elway's hands when Green Bay couldn't stop Terrell Davis?

Is that Elway's fault?

Personally, that's Green Bay's fault.

Is it Brett Favre's fault the defense couldn't stop Terrell Davis?

I don't think it is which is why that game doesn't make me think anything less of Favre. Same reason why I don't think anything less of Elway when he loses with the No. 1 defense especially when that defense gives up 55 points. Yet that is on Elway?

Denver overwhelmed Atlanta anyways in which Elway threw for over 300 yards and a touchdown.

Not bad for someone who does poorly in the Super Bowl.

I think what makes Elway great is the fact that he was able to go from "the man or president" to I guess the vice president. He put his ego aside for a Championship and let Terrell Davis carry them.

Not many players will do that.

That's why Elway is in my top three with Montana and Tom Brady when he retires.

Brady does the exact same thing in New England. He let's Belichick by "the man" because he rightfully is.

Montana would do it too. Jerry Rice was the most explosive weapon on that team.

Not Montana and that's the way Montana wanted it.

Those QB's are great and clutch because they can manage the game or take it over and win it if they have too. They don't over do it and they don't do to little. They do what they're told and rise the occasion.

Stats don't tell you that.

"porky88" wrote:



Wow, this is gonna take me 10 minutes to read, how long did it take you to write?
--------------------------------------------
UserPostedImage


A wise man once said
---------------------------------------------
You are weak, pathetic and immature..............I would have d
zombieslayer
15 years ago



Just looking at the Super Bowl as a basis for John Elway is ridiculous. That's it. Since when is one game a judgment of an entire career?

"porky88" wrote:



5 games. And he stunk.

Montana had 4 games. And he was perfect.

Once again, I thought we were talking about the word "clutch."

Bitterness? No. I don't hate the Broncos. I hate the Cows.
My man Donald Driver
UserPostedImage
(thanks to Pack93z for the pic)
2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. 🇹🇹 🇲🇲 🇦🇷
porky88
15 years ago

Defense wins championships is a myth.

Teams win championships.

Just looking at the Super Bowl as a basis for John Elway is ridiculous. That's it. Since when is one game a judgment of an entire career? I'm not taking anything away from the Super Bowl because after all Elway has two rings, but the demonizing of John Elway by Packer fans seems like bitterness more than anything to me.

Stats determine who the best fantasy football QB is. Not who the best QB is. Keyword is fantasy.

The arguement goes from Elway isn't clutch look at the Super Bowls to well yeah he was good in the AFC Title games, but Starr followed up his Ice Bowl with a Super Bowl MVP.

Elway followed up two championship games with two Super Bowl wins and an MVP too. That's pretty good.

Elway has 40+ career come from behind victories. He has one of the biggest drives in the history of the game in yes a big game. So he didn't do it in the Super Bowl.

Neither did Brett Favre. Bart Starr neither had to either.

Starr's coach was Vince Lombardi though and he played on a team with what is it 10 or 11 Hall of Famers. Maybe there is a reason why he never had too.

Does that take away from Starr? I don't think it does. Yet some take away from Elway because of Terrell Davis. One player and Elway's Super Bowls are a "never would've" and Starr had like 10 players of that caliber and the greatest coach ever.

Just looking for consistency.

My point wasn't to compare the two players or teams for that matter. My point was to say Championship Games are big games. I hardly doubt Packer fans would consider the Ice Bowl as a minimal game. It wasn't. It was huge.

Elway rose to the occasion on those games especially near the end in of course one of the greatest games ever played.

So what if his moment came in the AFC Title game instead of the Super Bowl.

Why would Denver put the ball into Elway's hands when Green Bay couldn't stop Terrell Davis?

Is that Elway's fault?

Personally, that's Green Bay's fault.

Is it Brett Favre's fault the defense couldn't stop Terrell Davis?

I don't think it is which is why that game doesn't make me think anything less of Favre. Same reason why I don't think anything less of Elway when he loses with the No. 1 defense especially when that defense gives up 55 points. Yet that is on Elway?

Denver overwhelmed Atlanta anyways in which Elway threw for over 300 yards and a touchdown.

Not bad for someone who does poorly in the Super Bowl.

I think what makes Elway great is the fact that he was able to go from "the man or president" to I guess the vice president. He put his ego aside for a Championship and let Terrell Davis carry them.

Not many players will do that.

That's why Elway is in my top three with Montana and Tom Brady when he retires.

Brady does the exact same thing in New England. He let's Belichick by "the man" because he rightfully is.

Montana would do it too. Jerry Rice was the most explosive weapon on that team.

Not Montana and that's the way Montana wanted it.

Those QB's are great and clutch because they can manage the game or take it over and win it if they have too. They don't over do it and they don't do to little. They do what they're told and rise the occasion.

Stats don't tell you that.

"Gravedigga" wrote:



Wow, this is gonna take me 10 minutes to read, how long did it take you to write?

"porky88" wrote:



Not long. I type fast. :lol:
porky88
15 years ago



Just looking at the Super Bowl as a basis for John Elway is ridiculous. That's it. Since when is one game a judgment of an entire career?

"zombieslayer" wrote:



5 games. And he stunk.

Montana had 4 games. And he was perfect.

Once again, I thought we were talking about the word "clutch."

Bitterness? No. I don't hate the Broncos. I hate the Cows.

"porky88" wrote:



I think Montana is clutch. Never said he wasn't. I said as far as modern football goes I think it's Montana, Brady, and Elway in terms of clutch and probably overall too. I won't argue against anyone who rates them differently. I probably rate my clutch and overall a little differently and I was talking more modern, but those are the top three in each.

Elway has a Super Bowl MVP under his belt. Saying he was bad or stunk in all five is just inaccurate. He threw for over 300 yards and a touchdown against Atlanta and the Giants. Ran one in against the Giants too. Yeah he had one pick in each game though, but that doesn't mean he stunk.

Unless I'm mistake, but you are one of the people that gets on others for pointing out Favre blew the Giant game in the NFC Title. Can't blame Favre for all of the mess and I completely agree. It wasn't all Favre's fault.

However, you can't get off of this Super Bowl is end all type of arguement for Elway in terms of clutch.

I don't believe games define clutch. I don't believe Montana was clutch against the Broncos when they blew them out. I think he was amazing, but the pressure really wasn't there once they got so far ahead.

I believe moments define clutch. I think Montana for example was clutch against the Bengals when he had too. Elway's moment came against the Browns. Brady's against the Rams. Starr against the Cowboys. I could go on.

Those moments define clutch.
zombieslayer
15 years ago



Unless I'm mistake, but you are one of the people that gets on others for pointing out Favre blew the Giant game in the NFC Title. Can't blame Favre for all of the mess and I completely agree. It wasn't all Favre's fault.

"porky88" wrote:



Whoa. Why bring Favre into this? We didn't list him as clutch, so the comparison there is completely out of place.

I'm just saying Elway should be dropped.

If it's moments that define clutch, then pretty much everyone had their moments. I really didn't want to bring Favre into this because I don't see Favre as a "clutch" QB, but by your definition, he had tons of clutch moments in '07, like going 7-1 with NO running game, throwing TDs in OT, keeping his cool in that game against the Hawks when Grant spotted the Seahawks that huge early lead, etc.

Heck, we can do that for almost any QB whose been in the league five or more years and won half their games.
My man Donald Driver
UserPostedImage
(thanks to Pack93z for the pic)
2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. 🇹🇹 🇲🇲 🇦🇷
Fan Shout
Zero2Cool (10m) : Raiders hired someone from the elderly home.
dfosterf (2h) : I'm going with a combination of the two.
beast (4h) : Either the Cowboys have no idea what they're doing, or they're targeting their former OC, currently the Eagles OC
Zero2Cool (20h) : Fake news. Cowboys say no
Zero2Cool (21h) : Mystery candidate in the Cowboys head coaching search believed to be Packers ST Coordinator Rich Bisaccia.
beast (23-Jan) : Also why do both NYC teams have absolutely horrible OL for over a decade?
beast (23-Jan) : I wonder why the Jets always hire defensive coaches to be head coach
Zero2Cool (22-Jan) : Still HC positions available out there. I wonder if Hafley pops up for one
Zero2Cool (22-Jan) : Trent Baalke is out as the Jaguars GM.
dfosterf (22-Jan) : Jeff Hafley would have been a better choice, fortunately they don't know that. Someone will figure that out next off season
Zero2Cool (22-Jan) : Aaron Glenn Planning To Take Jets HC Job
dfosterf (22-Jan) : Martha- C'est mon boulot! 😁
Zero2Cool (22-Jan) : Thank you
wpr (22-Jan) : Z, glad you are feeling better.
wpr (22-Jan) : My son and D-I-L work for UM. It's a way to pick on them.
Zero2Cool (22-Jan) : Thank you. I rarely get sick, and even more rarely sick to the point I can't work.
wpr (22-Jan) : Beast- back to yesterday, I CAN say OSU your have been Michigan IF the odds of making the playoffs were more urgent.
dfosterf (22-Jan) : Glad to hear you are feeling a bit better.
Zero2Cool (22-Jan) : I've been near death ill last several days, finally feel less dead and site issues.
Zero2Cool (22-Jan) : It is a big deal. This host is having issues. It's frustrating.
Martha Careful (22-Jan) : just kidding...it was down
Martha Careful (22-Jan) : you were blocked yesterday, due to a a recalcitrant demeanor yesterday in the penalty box for a recalcitrant demeanor
dfosterf (22-Jan) : Was that site shutdown on your end or mine? No big deal, just curious
beast (21-Jan) : That way teams like Indiana and SMU don't make the conference championships by simply avoiding all the other good teams in their own confere
beast (21-Jan) : Also, with these "Super Conferences" instead of a single conference champion, have 4 teams make a Conference playoffs.
beast (21-Jan) : Also in college football, is a bye week a good or bad thing?
Martha Careful (21-Jan) : The tournament format was fine. Seeding could use some work.
beast (21-Jan) : You can't assume Ohio State would of won the Michigan game...
beast (21-Jan) : Rankings were 1) Oregon 2) Georgia 3) Texas 4) Penn State 5) Notre Dame 6) Ohio State, none of the rest mattered
wpr (21-Jan) : Texas, ND and OSU would have been fighting for the final 2 slots.
wpr (21-Jan) : Oregon and Georgia were locks. Without the luxury of extra playoff berths, Ohios St would have been more focused on Michigan game.
wpr (21-Jan) : Zero, no. If there were only 4 teams Ohio State would have been one of them. Boise St and ASU would not have been selected.
Zero2Cool (21-Jan) : So that was 7 vs 8, that means in BCS they never would made it?
Martha Careful (21-Jan) : A great game. Give ND credit for coming back, although I am please with the outcome.
Mucky Tundra (21-Jan) : FG to make it academic
Mucky Tundra (21-Jan) : and there's the dagger
Mucky Tundra (21-Jan) : ooooo 8 point game with 4 minutes to go!
Mucky Tundra (21-Jan) : ooooooooohhhhhh he missed!
Mucky Tundra (21-Jan) : Ooooo that completion makes things VERY interesting
Mucky Tundra (21-Jan) : Game not over yet
beast (21-Jan) : Oh yeah, Georgia starting quarterback season ending elbow injury
beast (21-Jan) : Sadly something happened to Georgia... they should be playing in this game against Ohio State
beast (21-Jan) : I thought Ohio State and Texas were both better than Notre Dame & Penn State
Mucky Tundra (21-Jan) : Notre Lame getting rolled
Martha Careful (21-Jan) : Ohio State just got punched in the gut. Lets see how they respond
Mucky Tundra (21-Jan) : Notre Lame vs the Luckeyes, bleh
Mucky Tundra (21-Jan) : Oh snap!!!
Zero2Cool (21-Jan) : Even Stevie Wonder can see that.
Zero2Cool (21-Jan) : Nah, you see Lions OC leaving to be HC of Bears is directly related to Packers.
Mucky Tundra (21-Jan) : ohhhhhhh Zero is in TROUBLE
Please sign in to use Fan Shout
2024 Packers Schedule
Friday, Sep 6 @ 7:15 PM
Eagles
Sunday, Sep 15 @ 12:00 PM
COLTS
Sunday, Sep 22 @ 12:00 PM
Titans
Sunday, Sep 29 @ 12:00 PM
VIKINGS
Sunday, Oct 6 @ 3:25 PM
Rams
Sunday, Oct 13 @ 12:00 PM
CARDINALS
Sunday, Oct 20 @ 12:00 PM
TEXANS
Sunday, Oct 27 @ 12:00 PM
Jaguars
Sunday, Nov 3 @ 3:25 PM
LIONS
Sunday, Nov 17 @ 12:00 PM
Bears
Sunday, Nov 24 @ 3:25 PM
49ERS
Thursday, Nov 28 @ 7:20 PM
DOLPHINS
Thursday, Dec 5 @ 7:15 PM
Lions
Sunday, Dec 15 @ 7:20 PM
Seahawks
Monday, Dec 23 @ 7:15 PM
SAINTS
Sunday, Dec 29 @ 3:25 PM
Vikings
Sunday, Jan 5 @ 12:00 PM
BEARS
Sunday, Jan 12 @ 3:30 PM
Eagles
Recent Topics
2h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Martha Careful

22-Jan / Random Babble / packerfanoutwest

21-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

21-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

20-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / Martha Careful

20-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / bboystyle

20-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

20-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

19-Jan / Random Babble / Martha Careful

18-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

17-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / bboystyle

17-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

17-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / Martha Careful

16-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

16-Jan / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

Headlines
Copyright © 2006 - 2025 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.