Gravedigga
16 years ago

Frankly, I cringed to see Dan Marino's name on the list for much the same reason I cringed to see John Elway's name mentioned in this conversation.

Marino was king of the regular season, but he was mediocre to downright bad in the postseason. Twice he played withe the number-one defense in the league and played with a couple other top-five defenses. He had stunning running games that ground out 1900 to over 2000 yards in a season. Yet he was never able to get it done in the postseason. Consider this quote :

Myth: Marino was a big-game quarterback.

Cold, Hard Football Facts: Want to know the real reason why Marino never won a Super Bowl? Sadly, the answer sits with Dan Marino himself.

Simply put, Marino did not elevate his game in the playoffs. In fact, his played dropped off quite noticeably. Marino has a career regular season passer rating of 86.4. His postseason passer rating was just 77.1. He played in 18 playoff games, and won just eight of them.

In his one Super Bowl appearance (a 38-16 loss to the 49ers in Super Bowl XIX), Marino completed 29 of 50 passes for 318 yards, 1 TD and 2 INTs. It adds up to a weak 66.9 passer rating.
One wonders what might have happened had his two Super Bowl drives that ended in interceptions ended in touchdowns instead.

Remember that 1998 Miami team that had the best defense in football? It made the playoffs, but Marino failed to hold up his end of the bargain. The season ended in the second round of the playoffs, with Marino coughing up two interceptions against Denver and posting a passer rating of just 65.5. Yet another opportunity for Marino to win a Super Bowl tossed into the hands of an opposing defender.

In fact, Marino threw at least one interception in 13 of his 18 career playoff games. He threw two or more interceptions 10 times. The Dolphins went just 1-9 in those 10 Marino multi-interception playoff games.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



Clutch in the regular season Marino may have been, but not in the postseason. He had downright Elwayesque numbers in the Super Bowl.



1998 for marino? Come on, he was like 37 years old at the time, hobbling around on one leg. Yea they had a "good defense" because they ran the ball all the time and asked marino to bail them out at the end of the game. Their "good" running game was weak. They would run the ball like 35 times for like 3 -3.5 yards per carry. Very weak running game they had. They played control the clock until the last 5 mins when marino would have to win it.

I'm in Florida and have had to hear it all the time from dolfans. Their run game was one of the worst per carry in the league and their defense was pretty good but could get exploited by good offenses. And that #1 ranked 1998 Dolphin defense gave up 38 points to the Broncos who were the eventual superbowl champs that year. They also only got 14 rush yards that day.

also the following quote

He had stunning running games that ground out 1900 to over 2000 yards in a season. Yet he was never able to get it done in the postseason.



1984, his first season, they had 1918 yards, good enough for 16th best in the league. yes, this was the best the dolphins ever managed to finish with Marino. Stunning running game? It was ranked in the mid - late 20's most of the time. It was non existent just like their defense for all but a few years of his career(when he was hobbling around on one good foot).
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Cheesey
16 years ago
Yes, you NEED a great defense to win. But that doesn't take away from the fact that you need to SCORE in order to win.
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porky88
16 years ago
Defense wins championships is a myth.

Teams win championships.

Just looking at the Super Bowl as a basis for John Elway is ridiculous. That's it. Since when is one game a judgment of an entire career? I'm not taking anything away from the Super Bowl because after all Elway has two rings, but the demonizing of John Elway by Packer fans seems like bitterness more than anything to me.

Stats determine who the best fantasy football QB is. Not who the best QB is. Keyword is fantasy.

The arguement goes from Elway isn't clutch look at the Super Bowls to well yeah he was good in the AFC Title games, but Starr followed up his Ice Bowl with a Super Bowl MVP.

Elway followed up two championship games with two Super Bowl wins and an MVP too. That's pretty good.

Elway has 40+ career come from behind victories. He has one of the biggest drives in the history of the game in yes a big game. So he didn't do it in the Super Bowl.

Neither did Brett Favre. Bart Starr neither had to either.

Starr's coach was Vince Lombardi though and he played on a team with what is it 10 or 11 Hall of Famers. Maybe there is a reason why he never had too.

Does that take away from Starr? I don't think it does. Yet some take away from Elway because of Terrell Davis. One player and Elway's Super Bowls are a "never would've" and Starr had like 10 players of that caliber and the greatest coach ever.

Just looking for consistency.

My point wasn't to compare the two players or teams for that matter. My point was to say Championship Games are big games. I hardly doubt Packer fans would consider the Ice Bowl as a minimal game. It wasn't. It was huge.

Elway rose to the occasion on those games especially near the end in of course one of the greatest games ever played.

So what if his moment came in the AFC Title game instead of the Super Bowl.

Why would Denver put the ball into Elway's hands when Green Bay couldn't stop Terrell Davis?

Is that Elway's fault?

Personally, that's Green Bay's fault.

Is it Brett Favre's fault the defense couldn't stop Terrell Davis?

I don't think it is which is why that game doesn't make me think anything less of Favre. Same reason why I don't think anything less of Elway when he loses with the No. 1 defense especially when that defense gives up 55 points. Yet that is on Elway?

Denver overwhelmed Atlanta anyways in which Elway threw for over 300 yards and a touchdown.

Not bad for someone who does poorly in the Super Bowl.

I think what makes Elway great is the fact that he was able to go from "the man or president" to I guess the vice president. He put his ego aside for a Championship and let Terrell Davis carry them.

Not many players will do that.

That's why Elway is in my top three with Montana and Tom Brady when he retires.

Brady does the exact same thing in New England. He let's Belichick by "the man" because he rightfully is.

Montana would do it too. Jerry Rice was the most explosive weapon on that team.

Not Montana and that's the way Montana wanted it.

Those QB's are great and clutch because they can manage the game or take it over and win it if they have too. They don't over do it and they don't do to little. They do what they're told and rise the occasion.

Stats don't tell you that.
Zero2Cool
16 years ago
porky88, I completely forgot that Elway got his first ring against us until you just mentioned it.
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Gravedigga
16 years ago

Defense wins championships is a myth.

Teams win championships.

Just looking at the Super Bowl as a basis for John Elway is ridiculous. That's it. Since when is one game a judgment of an entire career? I'm not taking anything away from the Super Bowl because after all Elway has two rings, but the demonizing of John Elway by Packer fans seems like bitterness more than anything to me.

Stats determine who the best fantasy football QB is. Not who the best QB is. Keyword is fantasy.

The arguement goes from Elway isn't clutch look at the Super Bowls to well yeah he was good in the AFC Title games, but Starr followed up his Ice Bowl with a Super Bowl MVP.

Elway followed up two championship games with two Super Bowl wins and an MVP too. That's pretty good.

Elway has 40+ career come from behind victories. He has one of the biggest drives in the history of the game in yes a big game. So he didn't do it in the Super Bowl.

Neither did Brett Favre. Bart Starr neither had to either.

Starr's coach was Vince Lombardi though and he played on a team with what is it 10 or 11 Hall of Famers. Maybe there is a reason why he never had too.

Does that take away from Starr? I don't think it does. Yet some take away from Elway because of Terrell Davis. One player and Elway's Super Bowls are a "never would've" and Starr had like 10 players of that caliber and the greatest coach ever.

Just looking for consistency.

My point wasn't to compare the two players or teams for that matter. My point was to say Championship Games are big games. I hardly doubt Packer fans would consider the Ice Bowl as a minimal game. It wasn't. It was huge.

Elway rose to the occasion on those games especially near the end in of course one of the greatest games ever played.

So what if his moment came in the AFC Title game instead of the Super Bowl.

Why would Denver put the ball into Elway's hands when Green Bay couldn't stop Terrell Davis?

Is that Elway's fault?

Personally, that's Green Bay's fault.

Is it Brett Favre's fault the defense couldn't stop Terrell Davis?

I don't think it is which is why that game doesn't make me think anything less of Favre. Same reason why I don't think anything less of Elway when he loses with the No. 1 defense especially when that defense gives up 55 points. Yet that is on Elway?

Denver overwhelmed Atlanta anyways in which Elway threw for over 300 yards and a touchdown.

Not bad for someone who does poorly in the Super Bowl.

I think what makes Elway great is the fact that he was able to go from "the man or president" to I guess the vice president. He put his ego aside for a Championship and let Terrell Davis carry them.

Not many players will do that.

That's why Elway is in my top three with Montana and Tom Brady when he retires.

Brady does the exact same thing in New England. He let's Belichick by "the man" because he rightfully is.

Montana would do it too. Jerry Rice was the most explosive weapon on that team.

Not Montana and that's the way Montana wanted it.

Those QB's are great and clutch because they can manage the game or take it over and win it if they have too. They don't over do it and they don't do to little. They do what they're told and rise the occasion.

Stats don't tell you that.

"porky88" wrote:



Wow, this is gonna take me 10 minutes to read, how long did it take you to write?
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A wise man once said
---------------------------------------------
You are weak, pathetic and immature..............I would have d
zombieslayer
16 years ago



Just looking at the Super Bowl as a basis for John Elway is ridiculous. That's it. Since when is one game a judgment of an entire career?

"porky88" wrote:



5 games. And he stunk.

Montana had 4 games. And he was perfect.

Once again, I thought we were talking about the word "clutch."

Bitterness? No. I don't hate the Broncos. I hate the Cows.
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porky88
16 years ago

Defense wins championships is a myth.

Teams win championships.

Just looking at the Super Bowl as a basis for John Elway is ridiculous. That's it. Since when is one game a judgment of an entire career? I'm not taking anything away from the Super Bowl because after all Elway has two rings, but the demonizing of John Elway by Packer fans seems like bitterness more than anything to me.

Stats determine who the best fantasy football QB is. Not who the best QB is. Keyword is fantasy.

The arguement goes from Elway isn't clutch look at the Super Bowls to well yeah he was good in the AFC Title games, but Starr followed up his Ice Bowl with a Super Bowl MVP.

Elway followed up two championship games with two Super Bowl wins and an MVP too. That's pretty good.

Elway has 40+ career come from behind victories. He has one of the biggest drives in the history of the game in yes a big game. So he didn't do it in the Super Bowl.

Neither did Brett Favre. Bart Starr neither had to either.

Starr's coach was Vince Lombardi though and he played on a team with what is it 10 or 11 Hall of Famers. Maybe there is a reason why he never had too.

Does that take away from Starr? I don't think it does. Yet some take away from Elway because of Terrell Davis. One player and Elway's Super Bowls are a "never would've" and Starr had like 10 players of that caliber and the greatest coach ever.

Just looking for consistency.

My point wasn't to compare the two players or teams for that matter. My point was to say Championship Games are big games. I hardly doubt Packer fans would consider the Ice Bowl as a minimal game. It wasn't. It was huge.

Elway rose to the occasion on those games especially near the end in of course one of the greatest games ever played.

So what if his moment came in the AFC Title game instead of the Super Bowl.

Why would Denver put the ball into Elway's hands when Green Bay couldn't stop Terrell Davis?

Is that Elway's fault?

Personally, that's Green Bay's fault.

Is it Brett Favre's fault the defense couldn't stop Terrell Davis?

I don't think it is which is why that game doesn't make me think anything less of Favre. Same reason why I don't think anything less of Elway when he loses with the No. 1 defense especially when that defense gives up 55 points. Yet that is on Elway?

Denver overwhelmed Atlanta anyways in which Elway threw for over 300 yards and a touchdown.

Not bad for someone who does poorly in the Super Bowl.

I think what makes Elway great is the fact that he was able to go from "the man or president" to I guess the vice president. He put his ego aside for a Championship and let Terrell Davis carry them.

Not many players will do that.

That's why Elway is in my top three with Montana and Tom Brady when he retires.

Brady does the exact same thing in New England. He let's Belichick by "the man" because he rightfully is.

Montana would do it too. Jerry Rice was the most explosive weapon on that team.

Not Montana and that's the way Montana wanted it.

Those QB's are great and clutch because they can manage the game or take it over and win it if they have too. They don't over do it and they don't do to little. They do what they're told and rise the occasion.

Stats don't tell you that.

"Gravedigga" wrote:



Wow, this is gonna take me 10 minutes to read, how long did it take you to write?

"porky88" wrote:



Not long. I type fast. :lol:
porky88
16 years ago



Just looking at the Super Bowl as a basis for John Elway is ridiculous. That's it. Since when is one game a judgment of an entire career?

"zombieslayer" wrote:



5 games. And he stunk.

Montana had 4 games. And he was perfect.

Once again, I thought we were talking about the word "clutch."

Bitterness? No. I don't hate the Broncos. I hate the Cows.

"porky88" wrote:



I think Montana is clutch. Never said he wasn't. I said as far as modern football goes I think it's Montana, Brady, and Elway in terms of clutch and probably overall too. I won't argue against anyone who rates them differently. I probably rate my clutch and overall a little differently and I was talking more modern, but those are the top three in each.

Elway has a Super Bowl MVP under his belt. Saying he was bad or stunk in all five is just inaccurate. He threw for over 300 yards and a touchdown against Atlanta and the Giants. Ran one in against the Giants too. Yeah he had one pick in each game though, but that doesn't mean he stunk.

Unless I'm mistake, but you are one of the people that gets on others for pointing out Favre blew the Giant game in the NFC Title. Can't blame Favre for all of the mess and I completely agree. It wasn't all Favre's fault.

However, you can't get off of this Super Bowl is end all type of arguement for Elway in terms of clutch.

I don't believe games define clutch. I don't believe Montana was clutch against the Broncos when they blew them out. I think he was amazing, but the pressure really wasn't there once they got so far ahead.

I believe moments define clutch. I think Montana for example was clutch against the Bengals when he had too. Elway's moment came against the Browns. Brady's against the Rams. Starr against the Cowboys. I could go on.

Those moments define clutch.
zombieslayer
16 years ago



Unless I'm mistake, but you are one of the people that gets on others for pointing out Favre blew the Giant game in the NFC Title. Can't blame Favre for all of the mess and I completely agree. It wasn't all Favre's fault.

"porky88" wrote:



Whoa. Why bring Favre into this? We didn't list him as clutch, so the comparison there is completely out of place.

I'm just saying Elway should be dropped.

If it's moments that define clutch, then pretty much everyone had their moments. I really didn't want to bring Favre into this because I don't see Favre as a "clutch" QB, but by your definition, he had tons of clutch moments in '07, like going 7-1 with NO running game, throwing TDs in OT, keeping his cool in that game against the Hawks when Grant spotted the Seahawks that huge early lead, etc.

Heck, we can do that for almost any QB whose been in the league five or more years and won half their games.
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