Zero2Cool
2 years ago

Christian Watson almost ruined this story.

After Week 9, when Green Bay lost at Detroit after putting up only nine points, a question began to take shape: Why is it so hard to be a rookie wide receiver in an Aaron Rodgers offense? Watson and fellow rookie Romeo Doubs (second- and fourth-round picks, respectively) had struggled to make consistent gains, and seventh-rounder Samori Toure was barely involved.

Rookie receivers have never produced much during Rodgers’ time in Green Bay, but there’s never been a consensus as to why. It’s a real chicken-or-egg dilemma: Have rookies struggled because the Packers have rarely devoted the draft capital to selecting the kind of receiver who is ready to play right away — or because Rodgers’ personal standards are too high for any first-year player?

From 2008-21, Rodgers’ era as the starter in Green Bay, the Packers drafted six receivers in the first four rounds: Jordy Nelson (second round, 2008), Randall Cobb (second round, 2011), Davante Adams (second round, 2014), Ty Montgomery (third round, 2015), J’Mon Moore (fourth round, 2018) and Amari Rodgers (third round, 2021). Those receivers finished their rookie years averaging 26.7 targets, 19.5 receptions, 230.5 receiving yards and 1.3 touchdown receptions.

In the same time span, the 31 other teams in the NFL drafted 219 wide receivers in the first four rounds who averaged nearly double the targets as Green Bay’s rookies in their first seasons (50.7), as well as 30.1 receptions, 400 receiving yards and 2.5 touchdowns.

Then, in Week 10, Watson broke out with four catches for 107 yards and three touchdowns in an overtime win against Dallas. 

Against Tennessee, Philadelphia and Chicago, Watson hauled in a combined 11 receptions on 19 targets, scoring eight touchdowns (two rushing) in four weeks, which tied him with Randy Moss for the most for a rookie receiver in a four-game span.

But in all likelihood, Watson’s emergence came too late to save the Packers’ season, and when the chicken-or-egg puzzle was posed to Cobb, a 12-year veteran, on a quiet Wednesday afternoon in Green Bay, his answer proved that Watson hadn’t totally shredded the story — at least not to the degree he’s been shredding NFL defenses of late.

“During Aaron’s career there’s always been a constant couple of guys already here whenever they draft someone,” Cobb told The Athletic. “This is the first time in the course of Aaron’s career that rookies have been thrust into a position where they have to play right away and play meaningful snaps.”

GO DEEPER
With Christian Watson and Romeo Doubs now healthy, Packers can glimpse at WR future

This year, Rodgers has had to rely on rookies more than any other time in his career. From 2008-21, Green Bay rookie receivers averaged a target on 13.4 percent of their routes. Currently, Doubs and Watson average a target on 21.2 percent of their routes. Watson averages 32.1 snaps per game and Doubs averages 43.8, though he’s missed the last four games with a high ankle sprain.

Cobb averaged 6.7 snaps per game his rookie season in 2011, when Rodgers was in his fourth year as the starter and, according to Cobb, just as detailed and intricate as he is today. “And that’s why I didn’t play much,” Cobb said. “I wasn’t thrust into a position where I had to play 25-plus snaps. I was able to sit back and learn and watch and see the detail of what this offense does and what is expected of a receiver.

“That’s one thing that Green Bay has always prided themselves on, drafting guys and being able to develop them and not having to thrust guys into situations immediately in their career.”

But when Green Bay traded Adams to Las Vegas in March, that tradition ended. “You’re expecting someone to fill that void,” Cobb said.
The rookies were in over their heads for at least the first half of the season as games slipped away and losses and injuries mounted. Watson missed the first two weeks of training camp while recovering from minor knee surgery and then missed three full games with a hamstring injury and a concussion.

According to veteran receiver Sammy Watkins, there are “two offenses in one” at play in Green Bay: Matt LaFleur’s scheme and all the tiny details Rodgers wants executed to perfection, “whether it is angle, yardage, eye, head or tempo.” Watkins, who signed with the Packers in April, said he finds himself confused sometimes despite eight-plus years of NFL experience.

“If you’re not up to date 100 percent of the time, you pretty much can’t go out there and make plays,” Watkins said. “You can’t really play fast, and I think that’s what the young guys kind of are — not afraid of — but if you’re just trying to do the right thing, you are not focusing on getting open, you are not focusing on releases. ”

Speaking after his first practice back from his ankle sprain in Week 13, Doubs said he still wasn’t sure if he’d earned Rodgers’ trust.

“I don’t know,” he said. “I know with this being my first year here, playing for a Hall of Fame quarterback obviously has been the biggest learning curve for me. And it’s not just for myself, it’s for Christian, for Samori, so it’s been a really tough transition.”

Saturdays are typically the easiest day of the NFL week. Players come in, watch film from practice and then go through a light walk-through. There’s no real physical exertion required. But for Packers rookie offensive skill players, Saturdays are the most mentally exhausting day of the week.

“The signal meetings was by far the worst thing,” said former Packers receiver Chris Blair, who spent the 2021 season as a rookie on Green Bay’s practice squad. “I used to hate those.”

Rodgers uses hand signals at the line of scrimmage to change a route or a concept. You’re probably familiar with a few of his most common ones: the helmet tap, the one where he holds his left arm behind his back with his thumb pointed down, another where he raises an index finger and quickly rotates it and another that looks like the Hawaiian hang loose sign.

On Saturdays, rookie receivers, running backs and tight ends get quizzed on them. “You don’t want to get called on because … you gotta do it in front of the whole team,” said former Packers receiver Equanimeous St. Brown, who now plays for the Bears.

“It’s probably the most nerve-racking for a young player because we don’t get taught them,” said former Green Bay running back Kylin Hill, who was drafted in 2021 and released in November. “You have to learn them on the fly.”

“That’s definitely something wide receivers don’t look forward to, is the signal meeting, because we have so many,” said backup quarterback Jordan Love. “You don’t want any of that stuff getting out, so we wait until the season starts to start going through signals.”

None of the current or former Packers players interviewed for this story could place an exact number on how many signals Rodgers expects his offense to know, but several estimated a number somewhere in the 30s.
“What’s so crazy is all the coaches don’t even know all of them,” Blair said. “It’s really a thing that you really have to learn from watching (Rodgers) in practice or asking one of the vets.” Blair said that when watching film in Green Bay, coaches would sometimes think a receiver ran the wrong route. “But we would be able to show them like, no, Aaron showed us the signal!”

The signals are not written down anywhere. They are not searchable on the team-issued iPads and there’s no handy film cut-up to watch them all in one go. “It’s just in our brains,” Love said. The veterans pass them down in the oral tradition, but the rookies have to ask for help or try to pick them up on their own during the live-action of practice and games.

“We don’t teach them because players get released every day or traded, so we don’t want anybody giving out A-Rod’s signals,” Hill said.

St. Brown said that when he was a rookie in 2018, he stayed late every Friday after practice with fellow rookie Marquez Valdes-Scantling and a coach to review the plays and learn the signals.

The closest thing to a written record is a list of calls that Love creates each week. Each call or route or concept corresponds to a specific signal. He said the list is three columns deep and only for the quarterbacks’ use. “Wide receivers aren’t allowed to get that,” he said. “Especially the young guys when they first get here.”

Rodgers used to be the one to call players up to the front of the auditorium to perform signals on demand on Saturdays, but he delegated the job to Love last season.

“When they say signals, all the young players’ heads go down,” Hill said. “When you don’t make eye contact, that’s when (Rodgers) calls you.”

It’s rare for any young player to ace the selection of signals he’s given to identify or vice versa. “Some right, some wrong, that’s part of the process,” Doubs said. Blair said he always mixed up the signals for the hitch (thumbs up) and stick (thumbs down) routes.

“Some of the guys try to help discreetly if you are stuck on one,” said former Packers tight end Shaun Beyer, who was released from the practice squad in October. “If you are having a little blank, a lot of the guys will be like, ‘Ahhh, it’s this!'”

Rodgers’ long history in Green Bay can sometimes make it difficult for a young receiver to feel like he is fully caught up.

“Aaron will bring signals back from five or six years ago that he used to have in an older offense,” Love said. “He’ll just signal it out there and you just kind of got to know, and if you don’t know, you just have to figure it out. It’s hard for the young guys.”

Love is now in his third year in Green Bay, but he still hasn’t seen the full vault. “The older guys will remember them and know them, but we will see it on the side and we’ll be like, what’s that signal?” Love said. “I don’t know. Go ask him and figure it out.”

Watson had beaten his corner, and Rodgers had him wide open on a deep route for an easy touchdown on the first play of the season.

The football dropped through Watson’s outstretched hands. It was right there until it wasn’t. He threw up his hands and grabbed his helmet in disbelief.

Watson caught two passes in his NFL debut, but he wasn’t targeted again until the fourth quarter. Beyer said he noticed a change in Watson after the drop.

“He lost his confidence a little bit, you could see in practice and in the next games,” Beyer said. “And I think that is tough to gain your confidence back. He has made that catch a million times over and that’s why he got drafted where he did. … You’re thinking, ‘Oh, I let Aaron Rodgers down, he’s not going to trust me.'”

“I think it would shake anybody,” Watkins said. “If we catch that ball, we win that game. That changed the whole trajectory of the season.”

Watson has since rebounded from the disappointing start, but some players in Green Bay never recover from their original break. The current and former Packers players who spoke for this story said Rodgers isn’t the type to shout or yell at a young player for making a mistake. He doesn’t need words to do that.

“He’ll give you that little stare and you will know you need to step it up and lock in,” Hill said. “Looks like a little death stare.”

“That’s the worst feeling, when you know you f—ed up,” said tight end Jace Sternberger, a third-round pick in 2019 and the first offensive skill player Green Bay drafted in the LaFleur era. “(Rodgers) doesn’t say anything, it’s just the look in his eyes. Like, ‘Is this kid going to figure this out?'”

Green Bay cut Sternberger during the 2021 season, and he’s since spent time with Seattle, Washington and Pittsburgh. He said Green Bay’s offense is more detailed and complicated than anywhere else he’s been.

St. Brown is now playing with second-year quarterback Justin Fields in Chicago, where he said he’s more involved in the offense than he was in Green Bay.

“With a quarterback like Aaron, he has been doing it for so long that he knows what he likes, so if he likes a certain route this way, you run it that way for him because that’s how he’s been doing it,” St. Brown said. “With a young QB like Justin, we get to have more conversation about how we want to run it, how I like it, because maybe it is a new route for him, too.”

Does having a say in the offense with a younger quarterback create a better learning environment for a young receiver than being told exactly what to do and how to do it with a veteran quarterback?

“I wouldn’t say a better learning environment,” St. Brown said. “Regardless if it was the way it was for 15 years or 10 years before I got there, I’m going to learn it and do it the way he wants to. … I still gotta be on the same page as my QB.”

“I don’t have a say-so of anything, and I think that should be expected based on the majority of rookies,” Doubs said. “Whatever (Rodgers) has to say is whatever he has to say, but I know it will always be a W in the end.”

Playing with a veteran quarterback, especially one with Rodgers’ pedigree, “might be more stressful, but it’s good for you,” said tight end Robert Tonyan.

Green Bay drafted Amari Rodgers in the third round in 2021 and released him in November after he muffed multiple punts this season. Amari Rodgers said Aaron Rodgers felt unapproachable to him during his year and a half in Green Bay. He wasn’t necessarily intimidating, but just not an older guy that young players could easily talk to.

“He doesn’t really have conversations outside of football with many people,” Amari Rodgers said. “So that kind of maybe played a role, just not being able to feel personable towards him, not all connected, so you didn’t really feel comfortable to say things or communicate the way that you want to because of that. That played a part more than anything.”

“The majority of young players will be more shy and scared to speak to him because we all just watched him throughout growing up,” Hill said.

Cobb is among the few players in Green Bay who Rodgers does have that close personal relationship with, but he doesn’t think that is a factor as to why it’s challenging for rookies to get integrated into the offense.

“This isn’t high school, this isn’t college, this is a job and you have to treat it as such,” Cobb said. “Not everybody is going to have the greatest relationship. Like, you are co-workers. I don’t talk and hang out with everybody on the team. It’s really difficult. I can understand from (Amari Rodgers’) perspective why he can feel that way, because Aaron is a very intimidating person — talking about he has multiple MVPs, a Super Bowl-winning QB — and if you don’t have confidence to go up and have a conversation and ask, then yeah, I can see how that could be.”

Aaron Rodgers has his own group of veterans he is comfortable with, while the three rookie receivers have formed their own “little clique,” according to Tonyan. While the rest of the offense spreads out during meetings with seats in between each other, Watson, Doubs and Toure sit right next to each other in the front row.

“It’s good for them to do that,” Tonyan said. “Because you have someone to rely on.”

The three have handshakes together, and after Watson scored his second touchdown at Chicago, Watson and Toure got together to do their unique version: a swinging, kicking, leaning choreography. Things are getting better for these rookies, but it was just a few weeks ago that Rodgers hinted at wanting his team to make a move at the trade deadline for a receiver.

“There is a possibility, if certain guys emerge, of us having the chance to make a run,” Rodgers told reporters after Green Bay lost to the Jets at home in Week 6. “I know (GM Brian Gutekunst) believes the same thing, but if there is an opportunity, I expect Brian would be in the mix.”

Watson has since emerged in the very way that Rodgers publicly willed him to midseason, but it hasn’t been easy to get past the injuries, the huge expectations and the drops.

“As soon as you mess up once as a rookie, and you’re a rookie, it’s more of a strike than if you are Randall Cobb or Davante, because you have to stack up trust,” St. Brown said. “As a rookie, you start at the bottom, so you don’t want to go backward, you want to go forward, so you can earn some trust.”

Watson “had a couple of bumps in the road, but I think it got him right as far as mentality,” Watkins said. “Cobby working on him, myself and Lazard working on him, we got him to realize that hey, it’s not a little-boy sport, it’s not nice — be a dog, be a man — and I think now he grasps that concept.”

So now we know what it’s like to be a rookie with Aaron Rodgers. There’s a lot thrown at you, maybe even the ball.

Source: https://theathletic.com/4002003/2022/12/16/aaron-rodgers-packers-rookies/

Kalyn Kahler Dec 16, 2022 wrote:

 

So, this is the article that has many up in arms ... let's read it!!
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Zero2Cool
2 years ago
A few quotes that stuck out to me so far, but not done reading yet.


Randall Cobb 
“That’s one thing that Green Bay has always prided themselves on, drafting guys and being able to develop them and not having to thrust guys into situations immediately in their career."


Sammy Watkins
“If you’re not up to date 100 percent of the time, you pretty much can’t go out there and make plays,” Watkins said. “You can’t really play fast, and I think that’s what the young guys kind of are — not afraid of — but if you’re just trying to do the right thing, you are not focusing on getting open, you are not focusing on releases. ”

Remember when I said that I think Rodgers has his WR's playing tight, afraid of making a mistake? Remember how you jumped my ass? Go jump Watkins ass!!



Romeo Doubs
Speaking after his first practice back from his ankle sprain in Week 13, Doubs said he still wasn’t sure if he’d earned Rodgers’ trust.

“I don’t know,” he said. “I know with this being my first year here, playing for a Hall of Fame quarterback obviously has been the biggest learning curve for me. And it’s not just for myself, it’s for Christian, for Samori, so it’s been a really tough transition.”

Chris Blair
“The signal meetings was by far the worst thing,” said former Packers receiver Chris Blair, who spent the 2021 season as a rookie on Green Bay’s practice squad. “I used to hate those.”

“What’s so crazy is all the coaches don’t even know all of them,” Blair said. “It’s really a thing that you really have to learn from watching (Rodgers) in practice or asking one of the vets.” Blair said that when watching film in Green Bay, coaches would sometimes think a receiver ran the wrong route. “But we would be able to show them like, no, Aaron showed us the signal!”

Equanimeous St. Brown
 “You don’t want to get called on because … you gotta do it in front of the whole team,” said former Packers receiver Equanimeous St. Brown, who now plays for the Bears.

Jordan Love
“That’s definitely something wide receivers don’t look forward to, is the signal meeting, because we have so many,” said backup quarterback Jordan Love. “You don’t want any of that stuff getting out, so we wait until the season starts to start going through signals.”
 
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Zero2Cool
2 years ago
Shaun Beyer
Watson caught two passes in his NFL debut, but he wasn’t targeted again until the fourth quarter. Beyer said he noticed a change in Watson after the drop.

“He lost his confidence a little bit, you could see in practice and in the next games,” Beyer said. “And I think that is tough to gain your confidence back. He has made that catch a million times over and that’s why he got drafted where he did. … You’re thinking, ‘Oh, I let Aaron Rodgers down, he’s not going to trust me.'”


Something else I said live during that game. You need to go back to him. You need to get his confidence up. He's a young kid. Give him more opportunities to SUCCEED.  Yet, some of you were like BENCH HIS ASS. You have no idea.
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dfosterf
2 years ago
Possibly the most insightful article regarding Packer rookie wide receivers and the dynamic between them and Aaron I've ever read. Props for posting.
Zero2Cool
2 years ago

Possibly the most insightful article regarding Packer rookie wide receivers and the dynamic between them and Aaron I've ever read. Props for posting.

Originally Posted by: dfosterf 



It makes me wonder if this is an Aaron Rodgers-esque thing, or if other QB's do something similar.
UserPostedImage
2 years ago
Hmmm....If I were not sure of signals, I might ask:
  • the position coach
  • a veteran player
  • a back up quarterback
  • the OC
  • or even the icey Aaron Rodgers

I would not whine like a little girl about it.

Cleary Watkins didn't, and didn't know the plays.   I am glad he's gone.
Go Packers!!!!
Zero2Cool
2 years ago

Hmmm....If I were not sure of signals, I might ask:

  • the position coach
  • a veteran player
  • a back up quarterback
  • the OC
  • or even the icey Aaron Rodgers

I would not whine like a little girl about it.

Cleary Watkins didn't, and didn't know the plays.   I am glad he's gone.

Originally Posted by: Martha Careful 


Give the article a read and let's hear your thoughts.

As for Watkins. I've been asking for his release for weeks but this isn't about Watkins. 
UserPostedImage
2 years ago
I did....and you did

t is behind the paywall.....unless it is different from what was listen the thread, I stand by my thoughts
Go Packers!!!!
dfosterf
2 years ago
Aaron Rodgers gave a signal that was probably (I strongly lean towards definitely) directed at Christian Watson on that quick out down near the goal line at the end of the game. Cameras caught it, the announcers commented on it, Rodgers seemed to smile and joke about it, Nagler over at CHTV also brought it up, noting this article and the timing of it. You get the odd sense (at least I did) that everyone involved read this article, or at least heard about it. On the play,  I think I recall Aaron put his right hand up to the side of his helmet. 👋 
You couldnt script a better appreciation for the subject of this thread when viewing that missed play. 
Zero2Cool
2 years ago

Hmmm....If I were not sure of signals, I might ask:

  • the position coach
  • a veteran player
  • a back up quarterback
  • the OC
  • or even the icey Aaron Rodgers

I would not whine like a little girl about it.

Cleary Watkins didn't, and didn't know the plays.   I am glad he's gone.

Originally Posted by: Martha Careful 



You read it, but yet say to ask a coach? You didn't read the part where even the coaches don't know the signals? Or are you saying to just keep asking every coach until he finds one that does know them? And who's whining? And how does whine like a girl? Your remarks do not match the article at all. They come off as someone who read a quote, and got chirpy for chirpy sake. Which is cool, it's fine. And maybe my reading comprehension is off, so that could be it too haha. Anyway, I just think it's a good read and illuminating.  

I would also be curious about other QB's. Is this normal? I suspect many elite QB's are quite similar.
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Martha Careful (1h) : I would have otherwise admirably served
dfosterf (3h) : Also, no more provision for a write-in candidate, so Martha is off the table at least for this year
dfosterf (3h) : You do have to interpret the boring fine print, but all stockholders all see he is on the ballot
dfosterf (3h) : It also says he is subject to another ballot in 2028. I recall nothing of this nature with Murphy
dfosterf (3h) : Ed Policy is on my ballot subject to me penciling him in as a no.
dfosterf (3h) : I thought it used to be we voted for the whatever they called the 45, and then they voted for the seven, and then they voted for Mark Murphy
dfosterf (3h) : Because I was too lazy to change my address, I haven't voted fot years until this year
dfosterf (3h) : of the folks that run this team. I do not recall Mark Murphy being subject to our vote.
dfosterf (3h) : Ed Policy yay or nay is on the pre-approved ballot that we always approve because we are uninformed and lazy, along with all the rest
dfosterf (3h) : Weird question. Very esoteric. For stockholders. Also lengthy. Sorry. Offseason.
Zero2Cool (8h) : Maybe wicked wind chill made it worse?
Mucky Tundra (15h) : And then he signs with Cleveland in the offseason
Mucky Tundra (15h) : @SharpFootball WR Diontae Johnson just admitted he refused to enter a game in 41° weather last year in Baltimore because he felt “ice cold”
Zero2Cool (24-Jun) : Yawn. Rodgers says he is "pretty sure" this be final season.
Zero2Cool (23-Jun) : PFT claims Packers are having extension talks with Zach Tom, Quay Walker.
Mucky Tundra (20-Jun) : GB-Minnesota 2004 Wild Card game popped up on my YouTube page....UGH
beast (20-Jun) : Hmm 🤔 re-signing Walker before Tom? Sounds highly questionable to me.
Mucky Tundra (19-Jun) : One person on Twitter=cannon law
Zero2Cool (19-Jun) : Well, to ONE person on Tweeter
Zero2Cool (19-Jun) : According to Tweeter
Zero2Cool (19-Jun) : Packers are working on extension for LT Walker they hope to have done before camp
dfosterf (18-Jun) : E4B landed at Andrews last night
dfosterf (18-Jun) : 101 in a 60
dfosterf (18-Jun) : FAFO
Zero2Cool (18-Jun) : one year $4m with incentives to make it up to $6m
dfosterf (18-Jun) : Or Lions
dfosterf (18-Jun) : Beats the hell out of a Vikings signing
Zero2Cool (18-Jun) : Baltimore Ravens now have signed former Packers CB Jaire Alexander.
dfosterf (14-Jun) : TWO magnificent strikes for touchdowns. Lose the pennstate semigeezer non nfl backup
dfosterf (14-Jun) : There was minicamp Thursday. My man Taylor Engersma threw
dfosterf (11-Jun) : There will be a mini camp practice Thursday.
Zero2Cool (11-Jun) : He's been sporting a ring for a while now. It's probably Madonna.
Martha Careful (10-Jun) : We only do the tea before whoopee, it relaxes me.
wpr (10-Jun) : That's awesome Martha.
Mucky Tundra (10-Jun) : How's the ayahuasca tea he makes, Martha?
Martha Careful (10-Jun) : Turns out he like older women
Martha Careful (10-Jun) : I wasn't supposed to say anything, but yes the word is out and we are happy 😂😂😂
Mucky Tundra (10-Jun) : I might be late on this but Aaron Rodgers is now married
Mucky Tundra (10-Jun) : Well he can always ask his brother for pointers
Zero2Cool (10-Jun) : Bo Melton taking some reps at CB as well as WR
Zero2Cool (10-Jun) : key transactions coming today at 3pm that will consume more cap in 2025
Zero2Cool (9-Jun) : Jaire played in just 34 of a possible 68 games since the start of the 2021 season
Zero2Cool (9-Jun) : reported, but not expected to practice
Zero2Cool (9-Jun) : Jenkins has REPORTED for mandatory camp
Zero2Cool (9-Jun) : I really thought he'd play for Packers.
buckeyepackfan (9-Jun) : Packers releasing Jaire Alexander.
Mucky Tundra (8-Jun) : (Context: he wants his defense to create turnovers)
Mucky Tundra (8-Jun) : Giants DC Shane Bowen tells players to “be a damn pirate."
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