Pack93z
16 years ago

Note to self.. in the offseason project.. make sure that you include video of the poor linebacking play with regards to the notion that it is all up front.

I watched the line play and backers with utmost focus for the last couple weeks of the season.. I can assure you that the line play wasn't the reason for the poor performance of the backers.. I stake my rep upon that assessment.

"wils0646" wrote:



Well, to be completely honest, the last couple of weeks, Barnett was out and Hawk was out of position.

I just can't see how a whole crew can decline so much in one year. It doesn't make sense to me. It's not like all of them are old or anything.

"pack93z" wrote:



Hawk was regressing last year already.. I remember having a vivid discussion with Trom upon that very subject.. Hawk really didn't play exceptional either last season.. better in the running game but not in the passing game.. Hawk played the best his rookie year.. a telling sign. Barnett was active last season.. this season.. early on.. he wasn't playing very well.

On your point to Hawk out of position.. I never supported that call.. he was playing to tentative outside to ever be considered to man the middle.. it was a poor call.. Bishop is a liability in the passing game but a huge upgrade in the run defense. But back to Hawk in the middle.. he is a third year pro, I would expect him to have issues in pass coverage and maybe blitz packages.. but in run support.. Mike is a fairly easy position to play.. you flow to the ball and through traffic..

Hawk has talent.. that talented isn't being grown IMO, and he is regressing and not using the natural instincts he displayed in college.. he one of the most instinctive backers to come out of OSU.. that is saying something.. many good backers have come from that U. He is regressing and thinking way to much upon the field.. which in the third year of this system. shouldn't be happening..

That is one of my main complaints about Moss as being considered for the DC.. these backers aren't growing.. one of the best talents on the team is regressing.. that speaks loudly.

Hawk is a player... he needs to be freed up and allowed to play the type of ball he is capable of playing.. using those natural instincts at the position.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
zombieslayer
16 years ago
Pack - It's also Coaching. I've loved watching Barnett play since '03 and at the time, he was my favorite player on the D, even though it was only his rookie year.

Hawk is too talented to look this bad. I'm seriously wondering why the LBs all regressed in one year. Yes, Barnett is injured, but did we make some scheme changes that don't work? What's going on here?

My point I guess is Hawk and Barnett have too much natural talent to look this bad. Something else must be wrong (yes, I know Barnett missed games, but he wasn't looking sharp in the games he played either).
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ILikeThePackers39
16 years ago
I guess I'll go back to Occam's Razor. I just think the simplest, most logical conclusions are more likely to be accurate.

Hawk and Barnett just somehow "forgetting" how to be linebackers: Makes no sense, so I don't see it.

Injuries: Barnett's is obvious, but I have a hunch (admittedly it's nothing more than that) that Hawk's been more banged up than we've been told. I think he's been hampered by stuff most of the year, and then moving him to the middle made no sense - which leads me to...

Coaching: Possible - I think we saw a lack of creativity and flexibility in a lot of our coaching this year, and Moss could be in that group.

Scheme: This scheme depends on stout D line play, and has since Bates ran it in Miami. It's not like Zach Thomas was shedding offensive guards or anything. This rolls us back around to...

Injuries (pt. II): Losing Jenkins was HUGE, as was KGB's inability to round back into form from his knee problem. We just weren't deep enough on the D line this year to absorb those two injuries, and our D line play suffered horribly. Since the scheme is heavily predicated on the play of the D line, those injuries also affected our LB play.

It's a combo platter, folks. 1. We sustained critical injuries* in crucial areas of our defense, which cascaded along said defense. 2. Our scheme is either not flexible enough to allow for the adjustments necessary to make up for the injuries, or 3. Our coaches don't have enough of a handle on that scheme to make those adjustments.

That explains it well enough for me. The good news is that it's totally fix-able, without having to make wholesale changes to our personnel (on the field; I think changes in the coaching staff are warranted).



*I know, I know - "injuries are no excuse." Gotcha. Except this isn't Madden where you can turn of the salary cap and force trades, and this isn't the preseason, where you can have 80 players on the roster. We lost crucial pieces of our defense to injury this year and didn't have the depth to account for it. That's party on the FO, but it's also just how it goes. The Giants were/are insanely lucky that guys like Tuck were able to answer the bell for them, but I firmly believe it was just that - luck.
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go.pack.go.
16 years ago
The DLine has something to do with it, no doubt. But there is a big problem with the backers' pass coverage. Brandon Chillar is our only decent pass coverer. And yes, Desmond Bishop is arguably our best tackling LB, he is pretty good at stopping the run, too. I think Hawk needs to work on his pass coverage, and especially Bishop does. Maybe Chillar can help them out some, because I don't see Chillar being here with us in two years, maybe not even this year.
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zombieslayer
16 years ago

I guess I'll go back to Occam's Razor. I just think the simplest, most logical conclusions are more likely to be accurate.

Hawk and Barnett just somehow "forgetting" how to be linebackers: Makes no sense, so I don't see it.

Injuries: Barnett's is obvious, but I have a hunch (admittedly it's nothing more than that) that Hawk's been more banged up than we've been told. I think he's been hampered by stuff most of the year, and then moving him to the middle made no sense - which leads me to...

Coaching: Possible - I think we saw a lack of creativity and flexibility in a lot of our coaching this year, and Moss could be in that group.

Scheme: This scheme depends on stout D line play, and has since Bates ran it in Miami. It's not like Zach Thomas was shedding offensive guards or anything. This rolls us back around to...

Injuries (pt. II): Losing Jenkins was HUGE, as was KGB's inability to round back into form from his knee problem. We just weren't deep enough on the D line this year to absorb those two injuries, and our D line play suffered horribly. Since the scheme is heavily predicated on the play of the D line, those injuries also affected our LB play.

It's a combo platter, folks. 1. We sustained critical injuries* in crucial areas of our defense, which cascaded along said defense. 2. Our scheme is either not flexible enough to allow for the adjustments necessary to make up for the injuries, or 3. Our coaches don't have enough of a handle on that scheme to make those adjustments.

That explains it well enough for me. The good news is that it's totally fix-able, without having to make wholesale changes to our personnel (on the field; I think changes in the coaching staff are warranted).



*I know, I know - "injuries are no excuse." Gotcha. Except this isn't Madden where you can turn of the salary cap and force trades, and this isn't the preseason, where you can have 80 players on the roster. We lost crucial pieces of our defense to injury this year and didn't have the depth to account for it. That's party on the FO, but it's also just how it goes. The Giants were/are insanely lucky that guys like Tuck were able to answer the bell for them, but I firmly believe it was just that - luck.

"ILikeThePackers39" wrote:



+1.

I was trying to use Occam's Razor as well. There just has to be a simple explanation why all the LBs regressed the same year. You explained it quite well.
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porky88
16 years ago

I guess I'll go back to Occam's Razor. I just think the simplest, most logical conclusions are more likely to be accurate.

Hawk and Barnett just somehow "forgetting" how to be linebackers: Makes no sense, so I don't see it.

Injuries: Barnett's is obvious, but I have a hunch (admittedly it's nothing more than that) that Hawk's been more banged up than we've been told. I think he's been hampered by stuff most of the year, and then moving him to the middle made no sense - which leads me to...

Coaching: Possible - I think we saw a lack of creativity and flexibility in a lot of our coaching this year, and Moss could be in that group.

Scheme: This scheme depends on stout D line play, and has since Bates ran it in Miami. It's not like Zach Thomas was shedding offensive guards or anything. This rolls us back around to...

Injuries (pt. II): Losing Jenkins was HUGE, as was KGB's inability to round back into form from his knee problem. We just weren't deep enough on the D line this year to absorb those two injuries, and our D line play suffered horribly. Since the scheme is heavily predicated on the play of the D line, those injuries also affected our LB play.

It's a combo platter, folks. 1. We sustained critical injuries* in crucial areas of our defense, which cascaded along said defense. 2. Our scheme is either not flexible enough to allow for the adjustments necessary to make up for the injuries, or 3. Our coaches don't have enough of a handle on that scheme to make those adjustments.

That explains it well enough for me. The good news is that it's totally fix-able, without having to make wholesale changes to our personnel (on the field; I think changes in the coaching staff are warranted).

*I know, I know - "injuries are no excuse." Gotcha. Except this isn't Madden where you can turn of the salary cap and force trades, and this isn't the preseason, where you can have 80 players on the roster. We lost crucial pieces of our defense to injury this year and didn't have the depth to account for it. That's party on the FO, but it's also just how it goes. The Giants were/are insanely lucky that guys like Tuck were able to answer the bell for them, but I firmly believe it was just that - luck.

"ILikeThePackers39" wrote:



I think anyone who thinks it's just one cause is fooling themselves. Obviously things tend to be a domino effect in football. The fact is the argument for the linebackers is presented as an argument against Winston Moss for defensive coordinator.

As I've said over and over, Moss doesn't call the defensive plays and he doesn't head up the gameplan. Bob Sanders does. If you want to fix the defense you need better players and an upgrade at coordinator.

Moss provides the upgrade at coordinator in my opinion the same way Michael Singletary was an upgrade over Mike Nolan in San Francisco and he wasn't experienced much either. Same way Mike McCarthy was over Mike Sherman and he wasn't experienced much either.

Obviously better players or play your players at their proper positions is the next step. I don't think anyone can deny the talent this group of backers have. Get them healthy and put the three best on the field at their proper positions and you'll have an upgrade. Importantly upgrade the defensive line. If you don't have defensive lineman, you don't' have a good defense. It's common sense. Football is won and loss in the trenches. Talent wise Green Bay has much better linebackers than the New York Giants, but the Giants have a better defensive line and that makes their backers look better. That's not to say the defensive line is the sole reason and I don't think that to clear that up, but it's apart of the domino effect in my opinion.
Nonstopdrivel
16 years ago
I'm a big proponent of Occam's Razor myself, but when applying that time-tested principle, it's important to be able to differentiate between simple answers and simplistic answers. That is where data, sound analysis, and common sense come into play.
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all_about_da_packers
16 years ago

As I've said over and over, Moss doesn't call the defensive plays and he doesn't head up the gameplan. Bob Sanders does. If you want to fix the defense you need better players and an upgrade at coordinator.

"porky88" wrote:



Might want to re-check that.

I've read from reliable sources that Moss was involved in game planning and co-calling the Defense this year.

I highly doubt Moss' title of 'Assistant Head Coach' is just for show. He is the only 'Assistant HC' on our staff. Also, MM has stressed that his intention has been to help prepare Winston Moss for a HC position, so MM having him (Moss) involved in game planning / coordinating would seem like the right thing to do to help a position coach prepare for becoming a HC.
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porky88
16 years ago

As I've said over and over, Moss doesn't call the defensive plays and he doesn't head up the gameplan. Bob Sanders does. If you want to fix the defense you need better players and an upgrade at coordinator.

"all_about_da_packers" wrote:



Might want to re-check that.

I've read from reliable sources that Moss was involved in game planning and co-calling the Defense this year.

I highly doubt Moss' title of 'Assistant Head Coach' is just for show. He is the only 'Assistant HC' on our staff. Also, Mike McCarthy has stressed that his intention has been to help prepare Winston Moss for a HC position, so Mike McCarthy having him (Moss) involved in game planning / coordinating would seem like the right thing to do to help a position coach prepare for becoming a HC.

"porky88" wrote:



I heard on the radio that it's Bob Sanders's defense and I trust Harry Sydney's insight more so than anyone. He's usually right on. I assume if Moss was highly involved in the game planning and calling plays he wouldn't be a candidate for the defensive coordinator position if Sanders is let go and this is what most seem to think. It's Bob Sanders calling in the plays we know that much just by watching the sidelines.

I'm fairly certain McCarthy lies a lot to the media because Moss was given the title of assistant head coach defense just so he couldn't be swiped away by another team. It's a neat trick to keep a coach you like on your staff because you can't stop someone from leaving your team to go to another when he's getting a promotion.

I'm not saying Moss didn't have any say on the defense and I agree with you that he most certainly did and also probably had say over all 53 players as assistant head coach, but I don't think for a minute that he was calling the main shots. Bob Sanders was.
packer98
16 years ago
Still waiting on the changes. Why is Sanders and Stock still here?????
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